D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Hussar]

I see playing a D&D character in a similar light as playing in a Roguelike

I would rather chew glass.

 

[TheSword]

Oh good. We've moved on from Oberoni to appeals to authority. Good to see that people are so in touch with the feelings of millions of gamers they've never met or spoken to.

These discussions get a lot more productive when people just speak for themselves instead of trying to tell others how wrong they are based on what some fictional group of people apparently like or dislike. I mean, if exploration is THAT popular in the game, how come it's such a minor part of the rules and is pretty much entirely left up to freeforming?

Combat's pretty popular. And, oh look, an entire abstract system for resolving combat conflicts. Interacting with NPC's is pretty popular. Oh, look, an entire abstract system for dealing with social encounters. But, apparently, despite exploration being popular with lots and lots of people, in forty years of the game, no one has bothered coming up with systems for resolving challenges.

Funny how that goes. Almost like stuff that isn't really very popular barely appears in the game and is only really liked by a very vocal minority that figures that the rest of us should just get with the program. Reminds me of something, but, I've only got half of the idea.

You keep referencing third pillar as if it’s wilderness play rather than exploration being everything apart from combat and roleplay. Everything…

• The skill system
• Languages
• Tools and their proficiencies
• Time
• Vision
• Jumping, Falling, Swimming etc
• Resting and healing
• A massive number of non-combat spells
• Traveling other planes
• Objects
• Dungeon dressings
• The gods
• Underwater, Cold & Hot environments
• Settlements
• Crafting and identifying items
• Boons
• Treasure
• Non magical rewards
• Strongholds
• Downtime activities
• Traps
• Puzzles
• Chases
• Diseases
• Wilderness exploration

The vast majority of rules in fact. Are you willing to reconsider your claim that no one has come up with rules for resolving these things? Or are you entrenched. Can you see now that what you’re referencing is only a tiny slice of what the exploration pillar actually concerns? It isn’t just keeping track of rations and deciding if you get lost.

 

[Eubani]

It would have to wait for an edition change but I would like to see a rethink how abilities, skills and spell work and are presented. I wish to see less one and done (one roll or use solves) or skip issue and more interaction, more sideways growth and more incremental/levels of success/failure. One of the big causes of this is over simplification in some areas. A bit more meat in the guidance department wouldn't go astray either.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

So in a recent session in my game I had the party come upon a pit of acid with the bridge that once led over it having crumbled, portions of the stone sticking up out of the acid. I had just decided that was going to be a thing the party encountered with no idea for how they'd overcome it. The sorcerer cast Wall of Stone to make a temporary bridge, but they could have tried to jump across rubble sticking out of the acid, climbed the walls to get around the periphery, etc.

I think it's relevant for me to note I got this idea for an acidic mire from 4E. I had found a partial list of environmental features from that edition that were originally intended to be used as part of combat set pieces and decided that some could be divorced from their original intention to serve as environmental obstacles or oddities outside of combat. The acidic mire was one of those. Pretty basic, honestly, but there are other, more exotic examples from that edition.

This doesn't have anything to do with rations or torches, but looking at terrain and "terrain powers" from 4E could be inspiring.

 

[Hussar]

Snarky answer aside, I would point out that it's certainly not a zero sum game. Me getting an abstract system for resolving this sort of thing (as 4e did quite nicely) does not take anything away from anyone else. For those who want to freeform things and not get bogged down in mechanics, you are most certainly free to do so. For me, I get a nice crunchy system that makes an aspect of the game more interesting to me.

I mean, the game survives quite nicely with either Theater of the Mind combat or Grid combat. I fail to see why a task resolution system needs to be any different. Those who like the way things are and don't have any issues are happy, and those of us who do have issues get those issues resolved.

Everyone wins.

 

[Hussar]

No, you keep trying to put everything in one umbrella and ignoring the fact that virtually nothing you've mentioned here has any actual resolution mechanics beyond a simple pass/fail.

You keep referencing third pillar as if it’s wilderness play rather than exploration being everything apart from combat and roleplay. Everything…

• The skill system
• Languages
• Tools and their proficiencies

Languages are part of exploration and not Social pillar? That's interesting. Reading I suppose. But, again, the point that's been made over and over and over again is that the skill system is not complex enough to be interesting to me. Plus, so many class abilities make reliance on the skill system redundant.

• Time
• Vision

Vision is far more combat pillar than exploration. But, again, what mechanics are you using that require any resolution with time or vision?

• Jumping, Falling, Swimming etc

Yes, you mentioned skills.

• Resting and healing

Mostly a result of combat pillar. Almost never needed as part of exploration. Also, what resolution is needed here?

• A massive number of non-combat spells

Thus a major part of the issue.

• Traveling other planes

Meh. Planar travel rarely features in D&D. I mean, good grief, we're 15 Adventure Paths in and this next one is like the first one to really lean into planar travel and most don't have any.

• Objects
• Dungeon dressings

Again, what, beyond the DM just describing things, is being engaged here? You keep listing this stuff, but, none of it is and actual CHALLENGE.

• The gods

Ok, that's a stretch. A serious stretch. In what way are the gods a part of exploration?

• Underwater, Cold & Hot environments

Water Breathing Spell - entire party breathes water for the day. What's the challenge?

• Settlements

Social pillar.

• Crafting and identifying items

LOL. You are going to hold up the 5e crafting rules?

• Boons
• Treasure
• Non magical rewards

Really? What treasures or Boons are you rewarded as part of exploration? Who is giving you a boon that you didn't talk to? Isn't most treasure a result of combat?

• Strongholds

Again, you're holding up 5e's stronghold rules? LOL.

• Downtime activities

Virtually none of these are exploration. But, they are a very nice abstract system and I would ADORE it if the downtime mechanics could be leveraged into exploration.

• Traps
• Puzzles

Pass/fail. Snore.

• Chases

Yeah, because the 5e chase rules are a thing of wonder.

• Diseases

Ooo, something that gets resolved by ticking off a single 3rd level cleric spell.

• Wilderness exploration

The vast majority of rules in fact. Are you willing to reconsider your claim that no one has come up with rules for resolving these things? Or are you entrenched. Can you see now that what you’re referencing is only a tiny slice of what the exploration pillar actually concerns? It isn’t just keeping track of rations and deciding if you get lost.

So, to sum up, you've listed a number of things that have zero actual challenge, many things that are not actually exploration at all, and the things that you have listed that are part of exploration are either trivially easy with class abilities, or basically pass/fail random rolls.

Be still my beating heart.

 

[Eubani]

For most editions just about anything that is good about exploration is provided by the DM and the players not the rules or mechanics.

 

[Fanaelialae]

By this I'm guessing you're also not a fan of Roguelike computer games, where most of the point is simply to see how far you get before you die - and you 99.9+% likely will die; actually winning the game is extremely difficult and-or takes many hours (or days, weeks, months!) of grinding and-or a lottery-ticket-crazy run of good luck. Die, and you start over from scratch; there's no save points.

I play these all the time.

I see playing a D&D character in a similar light as playing in a Roguelike - I'll run it till it drops, and see how far it gets. Then I'll roll up another (or get the first one revived; this doesn't map to a Roguelike as it kind of is a save-point) and try again.

I think D&D is more of a rougelite, when it resembles Rogue at all. In case you're unfamiliar with the term, a roguelite is similar in most respects to a roguelike, except that there's a sense of progression even if you die (although you might lose a significant amount nonetheless).

I say this because even if the DM starts you back at level 1, the party will likely loot your old character's corpse and then outfit your new character with some of their spare gear. That, along with (outside a TPK) having higher level party members to help carry the new character, means that in most cases some progress is retained, unlike in Rogue.

I suppose you could probably do an actual roguelike in D&D, but I think it would have to be a solo game.

While I do enjoy roguelite games (currently playing Dreamscaper, which is quite good) I don't approach D&D with that perspective. I mean, sure, if my character dies, they die. However, I'm not simply playing them to see how far they get. That's part of it, but equally important is exploring the character's perspective and story.

 

[TheSword]

So, to sum up, you've listed a number of things that have zero actual challenge, many things that are not actually exploration at all, and the things that you have listed that are part of exploration are either trivially easy with class abilities, or basically pass/fail random rolls.

Be still my beating heart.

You can attempt to poo poo these things as not to your taste but these things are exploration by dint of them being relevant outside of combat or roleplay. They have substantial rules, again they’re just not to your taste. Several of them have consequences. Falling for instance or jumping/climbing (not sure how you can say these are combat by the way when you can do them without a foe and without fighting)

There are number of elements that you claim aren’t exploration like downtime or settlement building but I’m sorry to say you are wrong. They may sometimes include other pillars like languages but all these things all involve the exploration pillar as well.

As for the skill system. It works. It may not be complicated enough for you, but it is essentially the same as 3e’s and Paizo’s skill system just with a different way of calculating the base bonus. It’s a system that has survived 17 years of robust use. You are free to dislike it but you can’t say it isn’t there or hasn’t done what it was supposed to do.

 

[Nefermandias]

Have you considered that you, like many people, may not have the skills or experience to prepare and present engaging exploration challenges for overland travel using the rules available in D&D 5e? These can be developed if you put effort into it.

That's what I think too. Exploration might not be the "worst pillar" but it's by far the one that demands the most from the DM.