D&D General Why fear is good for PCs

[Distracted DM]

I think that the main reason that the "down-and-making-death-saves" system was added to the game wasn't to remove fear, but to add it, as well as increase player engagement and increase tactical complexity.
Options to "just don't take damage" are limited in 5e, particularly for the types of character that tend to be on the front line defending the rest of the group, and healing couldn't keep up to mitigate it either.

A character dropping to zero and dying immediately loses any engagement for their player, except by proxy for their friends for the rest of the fight. For the rest of the party, there is no response or counterplay when the DM rolled lucky: the character is dead and that's it.
No pressure, no build up of tension, just the wait until the new character can be introduced.

A character going down and starting to bleed to death immediately adds tension and changes the tactics the players need to use. There is now a new and probably overriding objective in the fight: protect and revive that character. Can the fighter get there and push the monsters away from their comrade? Should the Rogue deliberately provoke an attack of opportunity on their turn, so that the druid can safely break off to go heal the downed character? Does anyone have any potions? It isn't just the player of the downed character feeling fear, the entire rest of the party feels fear for their endangered member and have to shift gears to try to save them.

Overall I'd agree, but with a few points:

Your reply sort of demonstrates what I'm saying: you're talking about near-death drama because in 5e, a character hits 0 and is "dying."
But if you have 30 max hp, but you have 4 or 5hp right now and you die at zero... this is basically your last stand, looking death in the face. There's tension, drama, tactical decisions to be made, all right there. Because right now, at 5hp, you're probably one blade in the ribs from death. But as it is now, with falling unconscious and dying, we just don't look at it that way.. because you can get right back up with a touch of healing and be hunky-dory.

I don't disagree that having a different state, "unconscious and dying," couldn't add more to it.. but 5e immediately plasters over that with stuff like Healing Word- a 1st level bonus action 60ft ranged spell that'll get them right back up.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Overall I'd agree, but with a few points:

Your reply sort of demonstrates what I'm saying: you're talking about near-death drama because in 5e, a character hits 0 and is "dying."
But if you have 30 max hp, but you have 4 or 5hp right now and you die at zero... this is basically your last stand, looking death in the face. There's tension, drama, tactical decisions to be made, all right there. Because right now, at 5hp, you're probably one blade in the ribs from death. But as it is now, with falling unconscious and dying, we just don't look at it that way.. because you can get right back up with a touch of healing and be hunky-dory.

I don't disagree that having a different state, "unconscious and dying," couldn't add more to it.. but 5e immediately plasters over that with stuff like Healing Word- a 1st level bonus action 60ft ranged spell that'll get them right back up.

If you have 4 or 5 hp then sure, you're probably feeling afraid for your character. - But if the DM had just rolled a little better on that last hit you took, you wouldn't be feeling afraid for your character, you'd probably be feeling frustrated and annoyed as you start generating a new one.
If you die at 0, at what point do you start feeling afraid for your character? At 30hp a crit or failed save and an above-average roll could kill you before you even hit bloodied.
So you're afraid most of the time? Or are you just apathetic, because you're always at risk?

But when you do get low, what are your tactical decisions? 5e doesn't have many effective defensive options outside of spells. Running will generally rely on the rest of the party to defend you, risking themselves, since many monsters can run down the average PC. Dodging increases your chance to live by a little, but again at the expense of your contribution to the fight. The only real option, if you're playing a character with resources, is to burn more of them, if you weren't already.

The sort of people who care about their characters enough to be your target victims probably wouldn't enter a fight casually, or with no tactics. They're already trying to minimise their damage taken vs effectiveness ratio.

Even with the death saves system, people still fear the results of getting unlucky in a fight: There is no guarantee of survival, and no one enjoys sitting on the sidelines rolling death saves. Its not as bad as having to roll up a new character, but its still not a fun way to spend leisure time intended to be devoted to trying to de-stress.

 

[Distracted DM]

If you have 4 or 5 hp then sure, you're probably feeling afraid for your character. - But if the DM had just rolled a little better on that last hit you took, you wouldn't be feeling afraid for your character, you'd probably be feeling frustrated and annoyed as you start generating a new one.
If you die at 0, at what point do you start feeling afraid for your character? At 30hp a crit or failed save and an above-average roll could kill you before you even hit bloodied.
So you're afraid most of the time? Or are you just apathetic, because you're always at risk?

But when you do get low, what are your tactical decisions? 5e doesn't have many effective defensive options outside of spells. Running will generally rely on the rest of the party to defend you, risking themselves, since many monsters can run down the average PC. Dodging increases your chance to live by a little, but again at the expense of your contribution to the fight. The only real option, if you're playing a character with resources, is to burn more of them, if you weren't already.

The sort of people who care about their characters enough to be your target victims probably wouldn't enter a fight casually, or with no tactics. They're already trying to minimise their damage taken vs effectiveness ratio.

Even with the death saves system, people still fear the results of getting unlucky in a fight: There is no guarantee of survival, and no one enjoys sitting on the sidelines rolling death saves. Its not as bad as having to roll up a new character, but its still not a fun way to spend leisure time intended to be devoted to trying to de-stress.

When you have so few hp and death's at 0? You change tactics. You switch to a bow or sling, you engage in encounters a lot more carefully, you try to lay your own traps, heck maybe you even retreat. That doesn't happen as easily when you're not dying at zero; more often than not the warrior is just hoping that their high AC will save them; if they go down it's cuz of bad luck- and hopefully someone will be able to get them back up quickly to take another roll of the dice. They're less likely to try to change the conditions of the test.

I think this might just be another Combat as War or Sport discussion, which is fine. They're definitely different styles of play, but what rules are being used will absolutely help push gameplay in one direction or the other.

 

[leozg]

Players in my group were certain that I wouldn't kill their characters until I asked them to bring a backup character 1 level below the current one, ready to be played in case the main character died. They started to think twice before jumping in every challenge in their way.

 

[Brotton Goodfellow]

It’s harder to do (for me anyway), but instead of my players feeling afraid their characters are going to die, I attempt to make them afraid of the consequences of failing. I’ve long since accepted that 5E was designed to keep characters alive, and the majority of 5E players, don’t play the game for a grind. I’ve run 5E Hardcore Mode by Runehammer, and although it was a fun campaign, I don’t want to always run the game that way (there are better systems for this, like Tales of Argosa/Low Fantasy Gaming). I’ve also tried homebrewing 5E, but ultimately just found myself running basic 5E 2014 with some minor tweaks I’ve picked up over the last 3 decades of slinging dice.

So instead of trying to “fix” the system or fight against it, I try to play the game as it was intended to be played but the stakes are tied into the narrative with the fear of failure driving the characters.

 

[Distracted DM]

It’s harder to do (for me anyway), but instead of my players feeling afraid their characters are going to die, I attempt to make them afraid of the consequences of failing. I’ve long since accepted that 5E was designed to keep characters alive, and the majority of 5E players, don’t play the game for a grind. I’ve run 5E Hardcore Mode by Runehammer, and although it was a fun campaign, I don’t want to always run the game that way (there are better systems for this, like Tales of Argosa/Low Fantasy Gaming). I’ve also tried homebrewing 5E, but ultimately just found myself running basic 5E 2014 with some minor tweaks I’ve picked up over the last 3 decades of slinging dice.

So instead of trying to “fix” the system or fight against it, I try to play the game as it was intended to be played but the stakes are tied into the narrative with the fear of failure driving the characters.

That's good as well! I use the "Flee!" rules from 13th Age; the group can choose to flee as long as there's still someone up, and the party escapes- but there's a campaign loss. The cult sacrifices the lamb, the princess eats the dragon, the great demon is summoned, etc.
But I still run dangerous combats, have a fear of failure, and still have character death on the table. I think you can do both.

Players in my group were certain that I wouldn't kill their characters until I asked them to bring a backup character 1 level below the current one, ready to be played in case the main character died. They started to think twice before jumping in every challenge in their way.

frankly "have a backup character ready" is not as cruel as it may sound. It just makes players consider other characters that they might enjoy playing if death is on the table.

I ran a 5e "funnel" recently, but I told players that if there was a character they really wanted to play they could have their others bite the bullet for them. A player that was absolutely set on one character ended up picking the random backup character they rolled because they enjoyed playing that character more during the funnel!