D&D 5E Why Has D&D, and 5e in Particular, Gone Down the Road of Ubiquitous Magic?

[jayoungr]

They could have some social hindering stuff mind blank, maybe something to lower cha, leomunds foul stench. Simple stuff like that maybe a you really need to pee spell

...Which all boils down to social combat IMO. Holding others back so that you can overcome them.

ETA: Besides, if those are done with "obvious magic," it kind of negates their value for social situations. The whole point of that sort of effect is that nobody realizes it's caused by magic.

 

[Azurewraith]

...Which all boils down to social combat IMO. Holding others back so that you can overcome them.

ETA: Besides, if those are done with "obvious magic," it kind of negates their value for social situations. The whole point of that sort of effect is that nobody realizes it's caused by magic.

True but then the fighter sucks in social pillar, unless your pumping cha so why can't the wizard? Maybe this is the bards time to shine, that is if the system is overhauled for no overlap.

 

[jayoungr]

True but then the fighter sucks in social pillar, unless your pumping cha so why can't the wizard? Maybe this is the bards time to shine, that is if the system is overhauled for no overlap.

I just don't feel that the game needs more classes that are good at combat and nothing else.

Besides, bards can be quite handy in combat and have wicked skills as well, so they're hardly useless in the non-social pillars.

 

[Azurewraith]

I just don't feel that the game needs more classes that are good at combat and nothing else.

Besides, bards can be quite handy in combat and have wicked skills as well, so they're hardly useless in the non-social pillars.

I was more thinking in this new non overlap world where everyone ends up with a new list who knows what bards would get for combat.

I do agree that everyone should be able to do something in every pillar using a key class stat

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Obvious magic, I agree with; "mostly hinders people" I don't. That would heavily skew the wizard's usefulness just toward combat, leaving the character little to do in the other two pillars of the game, since combat is the main time when you want to hinder people.

I would expect Utility magic to be split along the subtle/obvious line. Like, in combat a cleric can heal or buff and a wizard can blast, but out of combat a cleric can purify food or charm people while the wizard can fly and mage hand.

You don't want to give spellcasters too much out-of-combat stuff, though, or else you risk making the rest of the party feel worthless.

 

[Manbearcat]

So if I can play the game faster, easier, with fewer restrictions, fewer penalties and higher rewards, why wouldn't I?

It's like the adage of "You can have it fast, good or cheap, pick two." Well with magic you can have all three and eat your cake too.

Completely agreed. In the same vein as Hussar's "it would be easier to say who couldn't do this," it would be easier to describe what spellcasting cannot do (hint: the opposite of "everything"!) than what it can. And when you have a choice between something that the designers intentionally make open-ended and "rule"-breaking,* vs. something intentionally closed-ended and "rule"-abiding*...which one are people going to want to choose?

*I don't mean breaking game rules as in cheating or the like, but rather that non-spellcasting is almost always shackled with heavy and inviolable limitations, while spellcasting is always free to go in new directions that were never even considered before. Also, note that I am intentionally drawing a distinction between "magic" and "spellcasting," as I did earlier in the thread, IIRC.

Oh my sweet Wizards vs Warriors thread. How I have missed thee.

Directly tying into the issues you guys discuss above is the general play procedure tedium and extra (unwanted personally) mental overhead the GM is supposed to assume in the classic D&D model in order to keep spellcasters in-line. Minutia accounting (the intricacies of procurement of rare reagents and the transparent book-keeping with respect to the maintenance of that stash). The implications on compelling conflict/situation-framing that outrageous utility magic has and the -for-tat/arms race shenanigans that GMs must engage in to simultaneously (a) keep play interesting, (b) reign in spellcaster power, (c) while maintaining the pretense of neutral, non-adversarial GMing (while being the sole participant at the table utterly informed of all parameters of play and uniquely positioned to exploit unestablished backstory)!

Besides the issues discussed directly above, a few other thoughts.

1) Ars Magica is actually "Casters and Caddies (Angel Summoners and BMX Bandits)". D&D spellcasters eat Ars Magica spellcasters for breakfast.

2) D&D spellcasters eat Dungeon World spellcasters for breakfast. And Dungeon World martial PCs are much more broadly competent (while maintaining combat potency) than their D&D analogue. Simultaneously the means in place to reign in spellcasters in Dungeon World are (i) neatly wieldy (eg - not burdensome from a mental overhead or handling time perspective) and (ii) intersect perfectly with the rest of the engine to maintain genre coherency and the snowballing of the heroic fantasy/action adventure narrative.

3) One of the most relevant sources of genre fiction. D&D spellcasters wouldn't just eat Gandalf, Saruman, and Galadriel for breakfast. An 11th level + caster would "solo solve the LotR game" without breaking much of a sweat and throw a "silly Sauron...magical tricks are for kids (!)" at the primary antagonist as a parting gift for his impertinence. Meanwhile, how much more powerful is your standard 11th level martial character than Legolas or Aragorn?

 

[Shasarak]

For some reason I am hungry for breakfast again.

 

[Manbearcat]

For some reason I am hungry for breakfast again.

Spellcasters are a breakfast taco with pan-toasted corn tortillas, crispy bacon, perfectly cooked scrambled eggs, and fresh salsa.

Warriors are that pathetically envious fruit bowl in the corner of the plate that you mostly ignore.

 

[Tony Vargas]

For some reason I am hungry for breakfast again.

We're all out of Galadriel, but there's some Saruman left...

Which is pretty much precisely my point. Magic is so ubiquitous that what was once a pretty signature effect for one class is now shared by virtually every class. It's easier to say what our robed figure isn't than what he is.

In 1e AD&D, which class was throwing a bolt of fire a signature effect of?

 

[Shasarak]

Mmmm, fruit breakfast taco. Tacolicious.