Why hate onthe drow? (Forked Thread: How is FR changing with 4E?)

[Storm Raven]

The drow were kinda interesting for the first couple years. Then they became horribly overused. You couldn't hardly find a gaming group that didn't have a drow. I burned out on them 15 years ago, or more.

This brings up what I think is the most salient point.

You see, originally, drow were a secret. Their unveiling at the end of the giants trilogy (Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, Glacial Rift of the Forst Giant Jarl, and Hall of the Fire Giant King) was, at the time, wholly unexpected. Drow, in the original MM were described as a mere rumor, and weren't even given stats. Throuhg the Giant modules, there were notes from a mysterious "Eclavdra", and players kept trying to figure out "who is this", and in the end it is revealed to be this previously almost unknown race.

Yes, the drow were unfair - dual wielders with magic resistance, innate spellcasting and magical equipment that was nigh-unusable for PCs. But that was overcome by the fact that their very existence was the big surprise of the series, and that they had a host of odd powers the PCs had to figure out and came from a secret underground twisted fairy world was just a bonus.

If the drow had been left as the reveal in Hall and the main antagonists in the follow-up Descent into the Depths and Vault of the Drow (the middle original Underdark adventure focused on the Kuo-Toa), they would be cool. But they didn't stay there. First, everyone copied the "hidden hand" plot that Gygax had used, and inevitably, the "hidden hand" was drow. The number of adventures that had "and then it is revealed that the drow are behind the [orcs][goblins][pirates][space hamsters]" multiplied. It seemed that every other adventure after Hall had drow popping out of the woodwork.

Second, the "secret world" aspect of the underdark was coopted by FR, and the drow became the most famous residents there. And then that was spread throughout other game worlds. So, instead of being a secret Greyhawk element that crops up one to surprise players, drow from a hidden underworld began showing up in every campaign, to the point where an "underdark inhabited by drow" became an expected part of campaign settings.

Instead of a secret reveal from an unexpected location, drow became expected, dull, bland, and boring.

And then Drizzt came along to "subvert" the stereotype. And, like many "subversions" he turned out to be even more dull, bland, and boring than the original. Plus, he was annoyingly angsty and self-righteous. And the books are, at best, only competently written, and not particularly inspired. So, Drizzt is a dull subversion of what developed into a dull race, living in a dull campaign element. With lots of obnoxious fanboys.

 

[fba827]

I do not hate Drizzt, he's a single character of fiction.

I do not like drow, as a race, not so much because of the race itself, but because of my experiences with players who play it.

Every player that I have met that wanted to play a drow has always been a certain "type" of player, a type that I generally do not like to play with; and they always want to play the drow the exact same way, a type of way that makes it less fun for the rest of us at the table. Therefore, through no fault of drow themselves, I have a negative association with anytime the race drow is mentioned.

Is it possible for a different type of player to want to play a drow? Yes. Is it possible for someone to play a drow a different way? Yes. Have I, in my own experiences come across that as of yet in my 15+ years of gaming? No.


Just my opinion.

 

[messy]

A) It's trendy...

wow, that's some mighty articulate cynicism ya got there, set.

messy

 

[Traycor]

Drizzt rocks. I can understand people getting annoyed by fanboys drooling all over him, but that doesn't change how cool the character and his story are.

 

[JeffB]

This brings up what I think is the most salient point.

You see, originally, drow were a secret. Their unveiling at the end of the giants trilogy (Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, Glacial Rift of the Forst Giant Jarl, and Hall of the Fire Giant King) was, at the time, wholly unexpected. Drow, in the original MM were described as a mere rumor, and weren't even given stats. Throuhg the Giant modules, there were notes from a mysterious "Eclavdra", and players kept trying to figure out "who is this", and in the end it is revealed to be this previously almost unknown race.

Yes, the drow were unfair - dual wielders with magic resistance, innate spellcasting and magical equipment that was nigh-unusable for PCs. But that was overcome by the fact that their very existence was the big surprise of the series, and that they had a host of odd powers the PCs had to figure out and came from a secret underground twisted fairy world was just a bonus.

If the drow had been left as the reveal in Hall and the main antagonists in the follow-up Descent into the Depths and Vault of the Drow (the middle original Underdark adventure focused on the Kuo-Toa), they would be cool. But they didn't stay there. First, everyone copied the "hidden hand" plot that Gygax had used, and inevitably, the "hidden hand" was drow. The number of adventures that had "and then it is revealed that the drow are behind the [orcs][goblins][pirates][space hamsters]" multiplied. It seemed that every other adventure after Hall had drow popping out of the woodwork.

Second, the "secret world" aspect of the underdark was coopted by FR, and the drow became the most famous residents there. And then that was spread throughout other game worlds. So, instead of being a secret Greyhawk element that crops up one to surprise players, drow from a hidden underworld began showing up in every campaign, to the point where an "underdark inhabited by drow" became an expected part of campaign settings.

Instead of a secret reveal from an unexpected location, drow became expected, dull, bland, and boring.

And then Drizzt came along to "subvert" the stereotype. And, like many "subversions" he turned out to be even more dull, bland, and boring than the original. Plus, he was annoyingly angsty and self-righteous. And the books are, at best, only competently written, and not particularly inspired. So, Drizzt is a dull subversion of what developed into a dull race, living in a dull campaign element. With lots of obnoxious fanboys.

Very good post.

While I'm a moderate Realms fan, historically the setting has had this problem to no end-take something cool, and club you over the head with it, over and over and over and over and over, ad nauseum. Most of this I guess can be attributed to the 2E era Realms material and later (as well as the novel lines). The initial FR products (1E) were quite good. 3E Realms products have downplayed the Drow a bit, and ramped up the Red Wizards and Shades as the new uber-cool enemy/power groups who "are behind everything".

I prefer the Greyhawk approach and still utilize Drow that way.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I liked the Drow in Eberron because they made sense and were consistent with the setting and atmosphere.

I have two problems with FR elves. One, they don't seem to fit in. Sure, ALL EVIL, ALL THE TIME has been done a lot, but all the other races were either inhumanly alien or angry beastly races that lacked higher thinking. The elves, on the other hand, were ALL EVIL, ALL THE TIME for no other reason then, I guess, "Eh, someone has to do it." And somehow this race that constantly murders and devours itself has conquered the entire Underdark?

Which brings me to my second point. They're the elfiest of all elves. If the Drow do something, you better believe they're supposed to be the best at it. Two weapon fighting? ALL Drow are ambidextrious. Spell casting? Not only are Drow the most EEEEEEEVIL of spellcasters, they also naturally excel at it! And don't forget, they're naturally spell resistant too! But what about the arts? Oh, hello there charisma bonus! Drow became synonymous with power gamy because of how...how...elfy they were. It wasn't enough for them to be good at something - they had to be the BEST!

Oh, and I almost forgot, there is a third reason I dislike Drow. It's because they're so blatently "OH GOD WOMEN ARE SCARY." Look, nerds and geeks have enough troubles with women at times as it is. Do we really need an entire race of porny kinky elves ruled by their BDSM female overlords?

 

[Mercule]

Second, the "secret world" aspect of the underdark was coopted by FR, and the drow became the most famous residents there. And then that was spread throughout other game worlds.

This. I hate the Underdark, too. Pockets of deep caverns are kinda neat. An network of caverns that span pretty much as far as the surface world is just lame.

 

[Midnight Dawns]

I do not hate Drizzt, he's a single character of fiction.

I do not like drow, as a race, not so much because of the race itself, but because of my experiences with players who play it.

I seem to recall similar wording in the thread about gnome hate. Was it you?

 

[Midnight Dawns]

This. I hate the Underdark, too. Pockets of deep caverns are kinda neat. An network of caverns that span pretty much as far as the surface world is just lame.

I have always thought of the Underdark along the lines of the hollow Earth idea. In a fantasy setting the world being hollow to a degree, never bothered me. Over all I agree with ProfessorCirno that the Drow in Eberron have a more logical existance.
*Shrug*
That's just me though.

 

[WarlockLord]

Lolth. The society is completely idiotic.

"Despite the fact that everyone hates us, let's kill each other!"
"Yay!"
*Stabbing*

BTW, I play a drow wizard. Instead of being emo, he's a wisecracking nerd on a quest for power (specifically, necromancy. He justifies this as one of the few arts where you can draw strength from your enemies). Then again, our game is pretty nuts (ranger in a leaf tuxedo, anyone?)