Why hate onthe drow? (Forked Thread: How is FR changing with 4E?)

[Mercule]

I think the idea works if it's done right. Worked for Greyhawk, became silly in FR.

Didn't Greyhawk do it as pockets of caverns, some of which ran pretty deep?

 

[Traycor]

As the series progessed he rapidly became absurd. He was the all purpose "plot resolver" a mobile pocket knife.

I found this claim curious. The stories are about Drizzt. Personally I would expect for Drizzt to be confronting the problems presented in stories that are about him.

He has no personality, no drives, he doesn't develop as a character in any meaningful way.

I could write several paragraphs disputing this, but it seems more prudent to point you towards the new Readers Guide to the Legend of Drizzt that is coming out later this month.

I have a feeling that books does a fairly good job of summerizing how he has changed and developed as a character. It probably lays out his personality and drives as well.

It's fine if you like him. But wondering why other people don't suggests that you haven't read many actual books of any quality.

I lol'd at this. Personally I love Robert Jordan, Ramond E. Feist, George R. R. Martin, and Terry Brooks. All quality authors that write well respected books. In fact, I have a hard time reading books that aren't written by top talent.

Drizzt has deep charaterization for those that read close enough. I think the problem is that often readers dismiss the books as 'dribble' and actually miss the real content beneath the surface.

 

[Obryn]

I lol'd at this. Personally I love Robert Jordan, Ramond E. Feist, George R. R. Martin, and Terry Brooks. All quality authors that write well respected books. In fact, I have a hard time reading books that aren't written by top talent.

This post makes me

I'll definitely give you Martin, and I'll give you Feist for half of his stuff. I'm pretty surprised to see Brooks, Jordan, and Salvatore described as top talent, though. At least you didn't include Goodkind - then I would have known you're pulling my leg.

-O

 

[Traycor]

This post makes me

I'll definitely give you Martin, and I'll give you Feist for half of his stuff. I'm pretty surprised to see Brooks, Jordan, and Salvatore described as top talent, though. At least you didn't include Goodkind - then I would have known you're pulling my leg.

-O

I know that not everyone likes Jordan's style, but he is certainly considered among the top fantasy authors of all time. His use of prose is masterful.

Brooks I can understand your reservations, but he has to be included since he single-handedly resurrected the fantasy genre market for novels, and we wouldn't have any of the great fantasy books we enjoy today without him. I'm curious though. What fantasy authors would you consider to be the top talent then?

(mind you, I'm not talking about stories you like the best. I'm talking about top quality authors in the fantasy genre)

 

[Obryn]

I know that not everyone likes Jordan's style, but he is certainly considered among the top fantasy authors of all time. His use of prose is masterful.

He does have moments of good prose, absolutely. His world-building was very strong, too, in the first few books. He let his world get carried away, tried to fit everything that popped into his mind into the series, and generally made what could have been an outstanding (if somewhat generic) 3- or 5-book series into a behemoth where nothing much happens by the later books. Part of being a great author is knowing when to quit. (And I really, really hope Martin doesn't fall into this trap...)

Brooks I can understand your reservations, but he has to be included since he single-handedly resurrected the fantasy genre market for novels, and we wouldn't have any of the great fantasy books we enjoy today without him.

I somehow think we'd still have a fantasy genre without Magic Kingdom for Sale. Also, the Shannara series was largely re-hashed Tolkien. (As was Eddings, in a similar vein.) They may have kept fantasy commercially viable for a time, but not on the strength of their writing.

I'm curious though. What fantasy authors would you consider to be the top talent then?

(mind you, I'm not talking about stories you like the best. I'm talking about top quality authors in the fantasy genre)

I'd definitely include Martin, no doubt. Tolkien, too - largely but not completely on the unrivaled strength of his world-building. In more classical fantasy, Moorcock, Vance, and Lieber laid down some great groundwork and are still very readable today.

More modern, I'll add in Guy Gavriel Kay, Tad Williams, Glen Cook, and (especially) Neil Gaiman. I've recently been impressed by R. Scott Bakker, but others disagree. By the same token, I think Erikson has done some outstanding stuff with his Malazan series - but, again, there are plenty who disagree, and not without reason. I haven't read anything by Mieville yet, but people whose opinions I respect speak highly of him.

As far as newer authors go, Patrick Rothfuss shows a ton of promise.

If you expand to include Sci-Fi and quasi-historical fiction as well, you get a number of other outstanding authors, including my personal favorite, Neal Stephenson. Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle in particular stand out as elegantly-written, well-researched, and even bizarrely educational.

-O

 

[Fenes]

I dislike Drizzt (among other things) because he doesn't fit the FR. He is styled as the lone good drow, yet there are hundreds of good drow just a few hundred miles south of his home - and he somehow keeps missing that. And no one, not even the sister of the leader of said good drow, tells him about them. That's breaking character for a lot of NPCs.

Salvatore just ignores whatever of the FR that would force his character to develop a bit. And at the same time, his works are considered canon. But canon that doesn't fit with the rest of the FR is bad.

 

[Fenes]

As far as authors go, Louis McMaster Bujold is one of my favorite authors. Her Fantasy works may not be as well-known as her SF series (Barrayar/Miles Vorkosigan) but she just writes well.

 

[Traycor]

More modern, I'll add in Guy Gavriel Kay, Tad Williams, Glen Cook, and (especially) Neil Gaiman.

Maybe I got the wrong impression of Tad Williams, but I picked up one of his books several years ago and remember thinking right away that it was poorly written and never bothered to look at his stuff again. I'll have to give him a second look.

Neil Gaiman has written some great comics (and screenplays), but it always seems to me that he fails at execution. Admittedly I don't follow his work though, so I could have missed the high points. Beowulf was especially poor and Stardust was okay, but nothing that 'wowed' me with the writing.

 

[Traycor]

I dislike Drizzt (among other things) because he doesn't fit the FR. He is styled as the lone good drow, yet there are hundreds of good drow just a few hundred miles south of his home

Well, "a few hundred miles" is reaaaaally long way when you have to walk. I'm talking a really long ways away. Second, those drow were added to world by the designers because of Drizzt, so I find it silly to characterize that he then in turn doesn't fit the world based on elements that were added because of him.

Salvatore just ignores whatever of the FR that would force his character to develop a bit. And at the same time, his works are considered canon. But canon that doesn't fit with the rest of the FR is bad.

To be honest, I don't think Drizzt would be confortable around those other drow. He already has a home, a group of friends, and has found some measure of acceptance. I would go so far as to say that it would be out of character for Drizzt to just run off with those other drow 'simply because they are there.'

 

[Obryn]

Maybe I got the wrong impression of Tad Williams, but I picked up one of his books several years ago and remember thinking right away that it was poorly written and never bothered to look at his stuff again. I'll have to give him a second look.

I was quite impressed by the Dragonbone Chair and its series, but mind you - this was years ago. His Otherland series was decent, at least.

Neil Gaiman has written some great comics (and screenplays), but it always seems to me that he fails at execution. Admittedly I don't follow his work though, so I could have missed the high points. Beowulf was especially poor and Stardust was okay, but nothing that 'wowed' me with the writing.

I'm honestly not at all familiar with his comic writing. I have a few of the Sandman graphic novels, but I haven't read them.

He does great short-story work, and I'd strongly recommend any of his short-story collections. I think Smoke and Mirrors is overall better than Fragile Things, but both are pretty brilliant. Neverwhere frankly didn't impress me overmuch, but I did enjoy the illustrated Stardust. I was first introduced to him via Good Omens, which he wrote with Terry Pratchett.

American Gods is exceptionally written, with strong plot, character, and storytelling. I believe it's also won more awards than any other fantasy book this decade. Its follow-up Anansi Boys is such a different style you almost wouldn't know it's the same author. In tone and structure, it resembles innumerable myths, and it's done very well, too.

I also have nothing but good stuff to say about his childrens' book, Coraline, other than it's creepier than I'd expect for a kids' book.

-O