D&D 5E Why I Feel Hopeful about 5E (and why I think it may be closer than some think)

[Sadras]

Well our group has converted from 4E to the latest playtest material. The group became disenchanted with 4E's rigid power system. It is back to theatre of mind, although mind you we were already evolving to that at the end of our 4E run. We enjoyed 4E, made some great houserules - but in the end for us 5E offers a wider ranger of flexiblity in DM design, combat, simpler math and lower magic creep.

Even if D&DN doesnt come out, I can honestly say our group will not go to 3.X, 4E or Pathfinder - we will probably play a bastardised version of the playtest packet, drawing from the other editions and DM fiat for new spells and the various monster manuals to thicken the light bestiary in the playtest packet.

So far so good. It almost feels like we have gone full circle picking up a few good mechanics along the way but settling back on an updated BECMI/2AD&D.

 

[MortalPlague]

So far so good. It almost feels like we have gone full circle picking up a few good mechanics along the way but settling back on an updated BECMI/2AD&D.

I'm with you on this one. My group consistently says the playtest feels like 2nd Edition. We cut our teeth on 2E (in the later days of 2E), and 5th edition is shaping up to have a nice blend of streamlined mechanics and flavorful options.

 

[Gadget]

We enjoyed 4E, made some great houserules - but in the end for us 5E offers a wider ranger of flexiblity in DM design, combat, simpler math and lower magic creep.

I can see why you would feel this way, with at will magic, and tactical combat blast spells, and limited short range teleports. But one thing I appreciated about 4e was that, if you could stomach the aforementioned caveats, it really kind of limited the world changing magic to a large degree with use of rituals and such. Sure instantaneous or short duration/range magic was plentiful, but things like fly, long range teleportation, Scrying and such where limited. Even something as low level as rope trick is quite a world changer when you think about it. One thing I hope 5e works on is re-balancing the spell list a little, which seems to have been ported over from 3e wholesale with a few tweaks.

 

[ccooke]

I can see why you would feel this way, with at will magic, and tactical combat blast spells, and limited short range teleports. But one thing I appreciated about 4e was that, if you could stomach the aforementioned caveats, it really kind of limited the world changing magic to a large degree with use of rituals and such. Sure instantaneous or short duration/range magic was plentiful, but things like fly, long range teleportation, Scrying and such where limited. Even something as low level as rope trick is quite a world changer when you think about it. One thing I hope 4e works on is re-balancing the spell list a little, which seems to have been ported over from 3e wholesale with a few tweaks.

(assuming you meant 5e on the re-balancing)

The 5e spell list is actually quite interesting. A huge amount of it has been imported from 3e but some systematic changes have been made to the magic system to re-balance it. None of the non-cantrip spells scale with caster level at all any more - if you want the spell to be more powerful, you have to cast it in a higher level slot. Many more spells require concentration, too, and the rules clearly state that you can only concentrate on one thing at a time.

In terms of some of the particular problem spells...
Polymorph now automatically fails on anything with over 150hp or on anything that is a shapechanger. If it does work, the duration is "Concentraion, up to 1 hour". The caster would not be able to cast any spell that requires concentration without ending the polymorph.

Fly requires concentration. Invisibility exists, but there's no Improved Invisibility - all the invisibility effects I can find end if you attack or cast a spell on anything but yourself.

Scrying requires concentration, but is otherwise largely unchanged.

Teleportation is a 7th level spell, which you will only ever be able to prepare one of in a day. It appears to be vastly more dangerous than in previous editions, too. For any location you haven't studied carefully, mishaps will happen at least one time in three. And will instantly kill you. (If you've only seen a place casually, you get a mishap on d100 rolls of 67 or greater. Any time you get a mishap, you take 1d10 force damage and roll again, except you now roll 1d20+80. Since 1d20+80 is guaranteed to be more than 67, you are going to take an infinite amount of force damage and then turn into a smear. With these rules, anyone teleporting to a place that they haven't been to *often* is taking a massive risk)

Is that what you meant by rebalancing?

 

[Gadget]

ccooke, yes, I meant 5e!

Yes, I am aware of the changes they made to limit the "QWLF" syndrome. These have gone a long way to help balance the magic system. But other than not scaling w/level and the concentration mechanic, many appear to be wholesale imported from 3e. For instance, Fly, is still a third level spell and is arguably better than higher level spells like Wind Walk and such. There was a thread on these boards a while back about it.http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-be-Fixed-(September-Packet)&prefixid=dndnext

More than that, from a world building perspective I liked a lot of the Wahoo magic (other than direct damage combat) to be limited to higher levels or rituals.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm with you on this one. My group consistently says the playtest feels like 2nd Edition. We cut our teeth on 2E (in the later days of 2E), and 5th edition is shaping up to have a nice blend of streamlined mechanics and flavorful options.

I've seen 5e described as 2.75 before. It sort of feels like, "What would have happened if we had progressed 2e the same distance as 2e had been a progression on 1e."

 

[Mercurius]

Well our group has converted from 4E to the latest playtest material. The group became disenchanted with 4E's rigid power system. It is back to theatre of mind, although mind you we were already evolving to that at the end of our 4E run. We enjoyed 4E, made some great houserules - but in the end for us 5E offers a wider ranger of flexiblity in DM design, combat, simpler math and lower magic creep.

Even if D&DN doesnt come out, I can honestly say our group will not go to 3.X, 4E or Pathfinder - we will probably play a bastardised version of the playtest packet, drawing from the other editions and DM fiat for new spells and the various monster manuals to thicken the light bestiary in the playtest packet.

So far so good. It almost feels like we have gone full circle picking up a few good mechanics along the way but settling back on an updated BECMI/2AD&D.

Do you work for WotC? Because you're saying exactly what I want to hear . Sounds like my kind of gig. I love the simplicity of BECMI, the flavor of 1e, the core mechanic and customizations of 3e, the balance of 4e, but I dislike the limitations of BECMI, the the Shambling Moundness of 1e, the rules heaviness and rules mastery of 3e, and the gameyness and difficultly with immersion with 4e.

Actually, the phrase you use -- theatre of the mind -- is exactly what I missed with 3e and especially 4e. I remember a group I played in 10 years ago having arguments about whether to use minis or not, one guy claiming that they took away from imagination (which I agree with, at least in terms of excessive use of minis). I look forward to getting back into that more imaginative approach to D&D.

I'm with you on this one. My group consistently says the playtest feels like 2nd Edition. We cut our teeth on 2E (in the later days of 2E), and 5th edition is shaping up to have a nice blend of streamlined mechanics and flavorful options.

Again, another sales pitch that works for me. In some ways what I long for is a simpler version 3e, with some of the options but very little of the bloat and rules heaviness. It seems 5e is going in that direction.

 

[Li Shenron]

Sounds like my kind of gig. I love the simplicity of BECMI, the flavor of 1e, the core mechanic and customizations of 3e, the balance of 4e, but I dislike the limitations of BECMI, the the Shambling Moundness of 1e, the rules heaviness and rules mastery of 3e, and the gameyness and difficultly with immersion with 4e.

Well said!

 

[Vague Jayhawk]

Well said!

Agreed. Well said.

 

[Raith5]

ccooke, yes, I meant 5e!

Yes, I am aware of the changes they made to limit the "QWLF" syndrome. These have gone a long way to help balance the magic system. But other than not scaling w/level and the concentration mechanic, many appear to be wholesale imported from 3e. For instance, Fly, is still a third level spell and is arguably better than higher level spells like Wind Walk and such. There was a thread on these boards a while back about it.http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-be-Fixed-(September-Packet)&prefixid=dndnext

More than that, from a world building perspective I liked a lot of the Wahoo magic (other than direct damage combat) to be limited to higher levels or rituals.

I agree that this is one of the things of 4th ed D&D that gave the edition a great feeling (and made magic make sense to me) because it made powerful magic feel more special and made mundane things like overcoming terrain and climbing checks important to higher levels. It also helped stretched the game by giving mid and high levels a significantly different feeling. That said 4th ed undermined this feeling somewhat with teleporting first level Eladrins and Warlocks!