Why I Love D&D 3.5: Less Player Whining

Hmmm, I still prefer 3.0's cover rules, but your argument does make sense - I have gotten into a few arguments over cover with one player, (And always the same player...) Fortunately I have been using 3D terrain more and more, which seems to deal with even his arguments. (And I should mention, just to be fair, that he has argued on occassion that the monsters have better cover than I am giving them, even when the party is out in the open.)

The cover, rectangular (rather than merely square) base sizes, and some spell durations are all that I prefer of 3.0, everything else seems to be much better balanced.

The Auld Grump
 

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mearls said:
Here's an example - in my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, one guy is playing a warlock who has the spider climb invocation. He's always trying to walk on the ceiling as a way to shoot down into melee, and thus avoid the cover bonus that a creature gets from whatever PC it's in melee with. Since the average ceiling is about 10 feet tall, and standing up there puts his head at mid-back level of the Medium size creatures on the floor, I never give it to him.

I thought that Spider Climb had some flavor text in it about needing bare feet and a three-point "stance" in order to climb walls?

Looked it up in the SRD and this is what is says:

SRD said:
The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner.

Next time just let him fall to the ground when he shoots into melee. :)
 
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I agree. Also for those players who constantly inform you that certain rules are unbalanced or "dumb"

I used to have a player who had a real hate-on for sneak attack damage and let us know about it every session that the party rogue used it.

We don't play with him anymore.
 

I'm coming from the player's side, my GM always accused me of "whining" about my 3.0 druid and his animal companions.

I'd whine becuause we were either in cities or dungeons and my Entangle spell was usless.

I whined because the GM would send mostly undead and demons at us and he'd say, "these supernatural creatures scare your animal companions off the battle map."

I whined that my animals weren't "scaling" with later encounters and he blew me off ... until he read WotC's Wilds book, but I never got a legendary critter.

I whined when I asked to spend XP on my animals to make them scaleable and he said, "If you do that, you give them individual thought and make them NPCs." (DM speak for "I'll make your animal companion's attitude more of a hinderance than a help.)

... and then when I leveled a city block with my 8th level spells. beat up entire encounters as a dire ape and made the whole party "super heroes" with 3.0 Wind Walk, he whined to the point he shut down the campaign and started from scratch with six times less XP per encounter.

With 3.5 druids we are all much happier. My animal companion is now an "offical" class feature with clear guidelines that the GM doesn't have to "judge" and Wind Walk is tamer.
 
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Von Ether said:
I'm coming from the player's side, my GM always accused me of "whining" about my 3.0 druid and his animal companions.

I snipped a bunch of examples to save space.

It sounds like your DM is obsessed with control. If I had to make a guess, I'd say he tends to create very elaborate, linear stories that he's obsessed with seeing play out in a specific way, or he sees the game as DM v. players. I wouldn't be able to put up with more than a session or two of such a style, and I definitely don't run my games like that. When I talk about whining I mean "Let's stop the game for 10 minutes and argue over whether I should have +1 or +2 to hit because of factor X, or I want to now complain about what happened 2 sessions ago." It's stuff that brings the game to a halt and just bores everyone to death.

In my group, my DM style changes based on who's playing. To give an example - I really like running long, cinematic, fast and loose fights. For instance, in one game the party's fighter drank a potion of enlarge person, dropped to one knee, and formed a ramp with his back that the hexblade used to leap into the air and skewer a gauth. I created rules for the action completely on the fly, and the players didn't argue or try to squeeze any extra benefits from it. With some of my players, there's an understanding that the rules are guidelines, and that I'll bend them to accomodate any fun, crazy stuff they want to try. If I make a ruling on Monday, there's no guarantee that it'll be the same on Thursday. The players know to ask first, or to accept that a lot of the weird rulings are spot stuff made to keep the game moving or to encourage creativity in battles.

However, I have a few players who see the rules as a tool they can use to gain an advantage in the game. If I allowed that action, and handled it the same way when they were playing, they'd crunch the numbers, figure out if the maneuver was "better" than a normal attack, and start using it all the time. My intent in making judgements like is to give the players the chance to do something fun. To the rules lawyers, it's a chance to force me into a spot ruling that they can try to use against me.

To go back the warlock, he'll never just ask "Can I ignore their cover if I spiderclimb here?" Instead, he starts playing 20 questions with me - "How high is the ceiling?" "Are there any depressions or holes up there?" And when he thinks he has enough information to argue his point, he does his action, tells me what benefit he thinks he should get, and starts arguing. There's also a persistent assumption that bad event X never would've happened if I had ruled their way on certain issues.

The interesting thing is that I've been in Von Ether's shoes in the past - it's a big reason why I vastly prefer DMing to playing. I've had DMs flat out refuse to allow my halfling rogue to Hide, move while hiding, and then fire an arrow for sneak attack damage. I've seen other DMs refuse to give out much magical treasure, but then they use the CR system as printed and wonder why the party can't handle a beholder. I've been in other games where my wizard has found a grand total of zero scrolls to scribe into his books.

I've developed a severe allergy to DMs who use house rules. Unless I've gamed with someone for a while, my first instinct is to mistrust any changes. Especially as a full-time d20 designer, I can see some house rules and immediately pick apart their problems and merits. IME, a fair chunk of house rules (though not all) are developed by DMs to shut down what they see as character abilities that are too powerful.

I think that the social side of D&D - what I call the metagame - has a tremendous impact on how the game works, but it isn't something that anyone aside from Robin Laws pays much attention to. The +4 cover rule struck me as something that has a real effect there, at least with my group.

In CCGs, the metagame focuses on figuring out the most popular decks, the most popular cards, and the most common strategies. I think in D&D, the metagame rests in the social relationships between the participants. I had never really thought about it, but I've come to the realization that the way I handle the rules, and my DMing style, change dramatically based on who's at a session. The players also seem to act differently.

The classic example I can think of is the old adage I have that a group only roleplays their characters as much as the guy who's least interested in roleplaying. All it takes is one guy to really break the mood, or make stupid jokes, or play a goofy character, to drive a stake into any efforts to get people to roleplay distinct characters.
 

I forgot one point - in terms of the D&D metagame, the rules are the shield that players and DMs have against each other. As Von Ether pointed out, now that animal companions are handled differently in 3.5, his DM can't nerf them.

The rules are almost like laws for a small community - they're there to protect everyone and ensure that DMs and players can enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of good gaming.
 

D&D 3E started out with a desire to simplify the game. Same may argue that it has failed in this regard (personally, I would disagree), but reducing varying degrees of cover is a means of simplification. And perhaps that was the reasoning behind the decision.
 

Ogrork the Mighty said:
D&D 3E started out with a desire to simplify the game. Same may argue that it has failed in this regard (personally, I would disagree), but reducing varying degrees of cover is a means of simplification. And perhaps that was the reasoning behind the decision.

I think examining the combat chapter in PHB 3.5 reveals the reason: it makes it so you can make the call about cover based on line-tracing between minis on the battlemat instead of using GM conception of the situation.

Which doesn't sit well with me.
 
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mearls said:
I realized that while they might whine about a lot of things, they couldn't whine about the AC bonus to cover that I assigned to anything. It was always +4, no questions asked. There was no room for debate.

Mike, did you know that you're wrong? ;)

PHB p152, 2nd para, headed "varying degrees of cover"!

Varying Degrees of Cover: In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks.

- incidentally I also greatly prefer the 3.5e version of cover - it is simple to say "cover" or "improved cover" and either get the standard cover bonus or an improved cover bonus.

Cheers
 

shilsen said:
True. I actually put a comment in my house rules about not assuming that physics, chemistry, biology, etc. work in the game the same way as they do in our universe.

Good idea. I will be adding it to my "Table Rules" (to quote Monte Cook). I went with table rules instead of house rules, since they deal with gaming atmosphere and player/DM conduct, not changes to the core rules. I have no "House Rules" in the current game, since I am going straight from the core books.

DM
 

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