Why I think current ECL rules are dumb.

[Halivar]

Okay, rules for CR are like this:

For a party of four level X adventurers, it should take one-fourth of their resources to defeat a CR X creature.

One might say:

In any given contest between a level X adventurer and a level X NPC or CR X creature, there is a 50%-50% chance on the outcome.

I think that's a reasonable statement, assuming no outlandishly equipped PC's.

Now, here's the rub. I believe these gauges sort of equate CR and CL. X in one is as powerful as X in the other. Why then, must we LA the creature to be a suitable PC? Is a creature really four (or what-have-you) levels more potent as a PC than as a creature?

IINM, the ECL for a half-celestial is +4 (CR +2). So, according to the rules (unless I am mistaken, and I may be, quite certainly), a level 1 fighter with the half-celestial template should be an even match for another level 5 fighter. This is certainly not the case. The level 1 half-celestial is going to get drossed.

So please help me out. Please tell me how these rules work if I'm getting them wrong. As it is, I see no reason why ECL shouldn't be tied to CR + CL.

 

[Geoff Watson]

CR measures how good the monster is in a single battle.

ECL measures how good the monster is in the long term.

If all your 'adventures' are one-on-one arena-style battles, then you could use CR instead of ECL.

Many monsters have abilities that are fine for one battle, but would be overpowered in a continuing campaign, such as 'at will' powerful spells, regeneration, and many other abilities.

Geoff.

 

[Halivar]

Well said, Geoff. I stand corrected, convinced and converted.

Perhaps I should actually take the time to read SS instead of just flipping through the charts.

 

[smetzger]

IINM, the ECL for a half-celestial is +4 (CR +2). So, according to the rules (unless I am mistaken, and I may be, quite certainly), a level 1 fighter with the half-celestial template should be an even match for another level 5 fighter. This is certainly not the case. The level 1 half-celestial is going to get drossed.

No, a level 1 fighter w/ the half celestial template will have the same CR as a level 3 fighter; therefore they will both be approximately the same challenge for a PC. However, being a challenge for a PC is different than the utility/usefulness of the extra abilities the template gives. The usefulness of the template to a PC is the equivalent to 4 levels.

The problem I see with this is that its linear relationship. For the 1st level fighter example the CR for the templated creature is probably a bit high. If we change things to a 18th level fighter then its probably a little low. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. The same applies for the ECL.

---warning house rules---
Perhaps a better way to do this would be to use the CR + character level as a starting point and then impose an XP penalty. I am not sure how well that would work and it would require alot of play testing. But ECLs have had a fair amount of playtesting and they seem to work for the most part, so unless your designing a game supplement and are going to do play testing, I would recommend just using the ECLs.


hmm.... Augusta, used to live there. Hot, muggy, thunderstorms that blow through surge protectors, but lots of good mtn. biking.

 

[Halivar]

Perhaps a better way to do this would be to use the CR + character level as a starting point and then impose an XP penalty. I am not sure how well that would work and it would require alot of play testing. But ECLs have had a fair amount of playtesting and they seem to work for the most part, so unless your designing a game supplement and are going to do play testing, I would recommend just using the ECLs.

Sounds good. Another way would be to use LA to determine XP to gain levels, thus reflecting the increased overall campaign-long usefulness of a non-standard race. But leave out LA when determineing experience gleaned from combat, denoting the fact that, in any individual combat, you are only as powerful as a CR "X" creature with "N" character levels.

BTW, where did you mountain bike in Augusta? The only really good bike trail I've found in my 10 years here is from the water plant to the levee.

 

[Grog]

Another thing to consider is that monster PCs get two very important things that most monsters don't - a point buy (or 4d6 drop lowest roll) to add their racial ability bonuses to, and x amount of GP value of magic items. This makes them much more powerful than a generic monster out of the MM.

Remember that monsters in the MM are completely average specimens of their race in every respect - they're the equavilent of a human with 10s and 11s in every stat. Compare a standard-race PC with all stats of 10 and no magic items to a regular PC and you'll see why the monster PCs need a level adjustment.