D&D 5E Why I think we don't need rules for exploration, just tools.

[The Human Target]

Tell you what?

How about you figure out something constructive to actually say instead of using your default setting of edition warring.

Yes, I am at fault.

 

[Minigiant]

A rule is just a tool that the DMs and players agree on ahead of time.

"Roll 1d20+bonus vs DC. Sucess is sucess. Failure is failure"" is a tool.

"We're using default rules so roll 1d20 + your Str mod + your skill bonus vs Climb DC of the wall. Sucess is a sucessful climb. Fail by 5 or less is no movement. Fail by more than 5 is a fall" is a rule.

 

[the Jester]

I'm not entirely clear on the distinction you're drawing.

Nor, I think, am I entirely clear on what you mean by "exploration" since you are lumping in non-combat and skill challenges in there with it.

Let's start here: How do you think diplomacy should work in game? It sounds like "the players talk and it's all based on their talking", is that right?

(This does fall under your definition of exploration, correct?)

Then how do you account for the 18 Cha pc with a shy, mumbling, not-good-with-talking player while the 7 Cha half-orc with a persuasive, glib, affable salesman of a player?

 

[Halivar]

Let's start here: How do you think diplomacy should work in game? It sounds like "the players talk and it's all based on their talking", is that right?

(This does fall under your definition of exploration, correct?)

Then how do you account for the 18 Cha pc with a shy, mumbling, not-good-with-talking player while the 7 Cha half-orc with a persuasive, glib, affable salesman of a player?

Can't speak for XVoK (since we fundamentally disagree on much), but this is one area where I fall on the "more roleplaying, less roll-playing" side. I have always hated Diplomacy as a skill. If I had my druthers, people would roleplay appropriate to their Cha score, and the NPC's would respond accordingly.

I have a similar feeling for Search checks. I don't like hearing "I search the room" from my players.

For everything else I can think of, having robust rules for adjudication are helpful and necessary.

EDIT: These two things, in particular, are where my recent 1E play has really facilitated my preferred playstyle more by what it left out than what it threw in.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Now in this thread I am lumping exploration and non-combat together. Also, this is of course my pure opinion.

I feel like actual rules for this are a waste of time. I feel like having tools and letting players decide what to do with them would be better. I know in my games the players like to come up with uses for what they have on hand whether it's skills, spells, or items. I find things like Skill Challenges from 4th edition to be an aweful attempt at this. Sometimes players will create instances that the DM didn't even plan just by using what they have and a little imagination.

Lawd knows I have my issues with 4e Skill Challenges, but I dunno so much about your thesis, here.

I mean, not everyone needs or wants good rules for things other than combat. Fair 'nuff.

But other people do. Why shouldn't they be supported? Just because Skill Challenges have their issues and players are creative? By that logic, why do we need rules for combat? Combat rules all have their problems, and players are probably creative enough to think of ways to hit things to death.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

If I had my druthers, people would roleplay appropriate to their Cha score, and the NPC's would respond accordingly.

So, for the majority of us (some especially so based on their posting etiquette), we should just cap Charisma at 8?

Do you feel the same way about any of the other stats? Should I roleplay my 20 Intelligence gray elf at the appropriate intelligence level? I gots me lotz more lernin's to do.

 

[LucasC]

I feel like actual rules for this are a waste of time. I feel like having tools and letting players decide what to do with them would be better. I know in my games the players like to come up with uses for what they have on hand whether it's skills, spells, or items. I find things like Skill Challenges from 4th edition to be an aweful attempt at this. Sometimes players will create instances that the DM didn't even plan just by using what they have and a little imagination.

When I first read about Skill Challenges I thought they sounded awesome. I was very excited to try them out. In practice, I found them less awesome than I originally envisioned but still useful for some situations.

I did not like the effect they had on what should have been interesting roleplaying encounters, such as social situations. Applying a skill challenge after a long sequence of roleplaying, maybe with a slight modification to the role, maybe not, didn't 'feel' right. It also had the undesirable effect of shutting some people righ down and they stopped RPing altogether and just asked for a skill.

On the flip side, I used them regularly, and will continue to use them in D&D Next, for other situations. I particularly like them for long-duration travel. We stopped using random encounters and built a pretty standard skill challenge that accounted for travel.

Like most things, I think they have their place but can be overused or abused.

 

[Halivar]

So, for the majority of us (some especially so based on their posting etiquette), we should just cap Charisma at 8?

Forum Troll is a LA -1 template with a -2 Cha adjust. So some folks are gonna be SOL.

Do you feel the same way about any of the other stats? Should I roleplay my 20 Intelligence gray elf at the appropriate intelligence level? I gots me lotz more lernin's to do.

Diplomacy and Search are really the only two skills that can be handled that way, IMHO. I play a wizard with a 24 Int, and sometime I have to throw up my hands and say, "my character is way smarter than I am." Almost everything else needs a resolution mechanic of some sort that is concrete and allows for players to NOT be their characters and yet still model them during play.

For me, Diplomacy is a last resort to roleplay. For instance, a player with severe performance anxiety (more common than you think); I am not going to torture that person, and a Diplomacy roll will do fine.

Sometimes players will create instances that the DM didn't even plan just by using what they have and a little imagination.

That sounds like an advertisement for why skill challenges are awesome.

 

[Mistwell]

I am not sure what you mean by exploration rules. So I am going to just riff off a list, off the top of my head, of things I consider part of the exploration rules. You tell me which of these are you talking about?

Overland travel rates and travel rates for various surfaces
Large region geographic hex maps (and size of each hex)
Small region geographic hex maps (and size of each hex)
Random encounter tables
Food & water rules for travel
Hunting and gathering during travel
Rules for getting lost
Survival rules for exposure, environmental dangers, and extreme weather
Random weather generation
Time measurements
Sight rules, obstructions, concealment, etc..
Searching.Finding hidden things
Rules for hearing things
Rules for keeping watch
Rules for navigating
Mapmaking rules
Light radius for various light-emitting things
Rules for doors and locks
Rules for resting
Rules for traps
Climbing/Caving rules
Underwater and swimming rules
Flight rules
Rules for maneuvering in tight spaces
Rules for jumping things

 

[TerraDave]

I am not sure what you mean by exploration rules. So I am going to just riff off a list, off the top of my head, of things I consider part of the exploration rules. You tell me which of these are you talking about?

Overland travel rates and travel rates for various surfaces
Large region geographic hex maps (and size of each hex)
Small region geographic hex maps (and size of each hex)
Random encounter tables
Food & water rules for travel
Hunting and gathering during travel
Rules for getting lost
Survival rules for exposure, environmental dangers, and extreme weather
Random weather generation
Time measurements
Sight rules, obstructions, concealment, etc..
Searching.Finding hidden things
Rules for hearing things
Rules for keeping watch
Rules for navigating
Mapmaking rules
Light radius for various light-emitting things
Rules for doors and locks
Rules for resting
Rules for traps
Climbing/Caving rules
Underwater and swimming rules
Flight rules
Rules for maneuvering in tight spaces
Rules for jumping things

I think a lot of the stuff on the list is good. I would associate it with old school exploration. And I guess rules.

That list is not 4E skill challenges. Those are tools for the DM...that didn't always work as well as one hoped. 4E actually had a whole Rules Compendium. It covered a lot of the above, though not always perfectly. It didn't spend much of its page count on skill challenges.