Why is 4E so grindy?

[Badwe]

even an obvious outcome doesn't always create grind. it can be tempting to make every encounter deadly, with the potential for PC death and an elaborate set up. sometimes it's ok to throw an easy encounter at the PCs to let them feel powerful by bowling over opponents.

 

[Mistwell]

Before the conversation goes much further: could the people saying "our group doesn't find 4e grindy" please put an actual time figure on how long it's taking you to clear level-appropriate fights? The baseline we're working with here is "hour-long combats on trash, two-plus-hour combats on solos/big fights, are too much". So is "not grindy" like half-an-hour, or is it still an hour and just a matter of word choice/differing tastes?

A "normal" combat for us takes 20 to 40 minutes or so. 20 minutes is not unusual, if luck is with us or we are particularly well organized.

We did have our first grind combat last night - but it was largely due to two players being absent, one of which was our wizard, and a lot of minions plus tough guys who shared hit points in a hit point pool with each other. So, focused fire was no more or less effective than spreading fire around...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Problem is that 'grindy' isn't necessarily related to time taken, but more to perception of the combat, as others have already mentioned. Half an hour could be grindy if the party miss with all their encounters and dailies and have to wear the solo down with at-wills, even if they get through it quickly

Cheers

If you don´t use at-wills then you can as well ditch them entirely...

I believe part of the grind is coming from using encounter powers too early... you can´t alpha strike, so it is often better to save up your guns for the right circumstance... (beeing aided, buffed or something)

 

[Paradox]

All of those things you describe are good things for a DM to do to keep players interested in the game, but I don't see how they have anything to do with the "grind" of a combat encounter, which is what this thread is about.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood what was meant by "grind". If all you do is combat, that will contribute to the game feeling "grindy". It's the variety of other activities that makes things interesting.

Take WoW for example. It's a fun game when you first play it and/or make a new character. I thought it would be really neat to take some professions to mine materials for my paladin's weapons and armor, then use blacksmithing to build the weapons and armor, and finally enchant it. I different approach than just waiting for a magic sword to drop, I figured it would be fun and more personal.

I spent lots of time grinding the materials. Usually, it wasn't enough, so I'd have to grind some more. Even something like fishing becomes a grind.

Yes, it was boring at timees, actually interesting other times, (had to race to the resource before someone else got there, and can I grind over in enemy territory before I'm caught?) but others it was just something to do.

 

[Ourph]

The basic grind problem needs to be addressed at the core rule level to benefit the greatest number of people.

I'm not sure this is true, primarily because I'm not sure there is a "basic grind problem". Just from this thread, it seems that for many DMs grind is, at worst, an occasional problem based on individual circumstances (missing players, bad dice rolls, party composition) or individual player characteristics (inexperienced, unfocused, unfamiliar with the other PCs/players, etc.). Any mechanical "fix" that gets rid of the perceived problem for some people's groups is likely to impose new problems on my group (where grind isn't really an issue and changes aren't needed or wanted).

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'm not sure this is true, primarily because I'm not sure there is a "basic grind problem". Just from this thread, it seems that for many DMs grind is, at worst, an occasional problem based on individual circumstances (missing players, bad dice rolls, party composition) or individual player characteristics (inexperienced, unfocused, unfamiliar with the other PCs/players, etc.). Any mechanical "fix" that gets rid of the perceived problem for some people's groups is likely to impose new problems on my group (where grind isn't really an issue and changes aren't needed or wanted).

I think there are enough root causes in the basic mechanics to make any of these circumstances lead to increased grind and if more than one of these factors is at work the problem gets worse.

One idea I thought about would be to organize the combat rules into two tiers similar to the GURPS system. Basic combat could be bare bones resolution with fewer options, gridless and designed for speed. Advanced combat could be more involved, detailed and focused on wider tactical options.

If implemented correctly the two tiers could be interchangeable so that a DM could run encounters of lesser importance with the basic rules and save the heavy tactical stuff for the epic battles. It would be important that the advanced parts reinforced the existing basic rules without forcing players to relearn a whole new system. Of course there would be nothing stopping a group from playing all basic or all advanced combat either depending on preference.

Another advantage would be that basic combat, being less involved, would be easier for newbies to get into. Thoughts?

 

[LostSoul]

Thoughts?

That is an awesome idea, something I've been trying to work on for a while now. I keep abandoning my designs because they all suck!

 

[Ourph]

I think there are enough root causes in the basic mechanics to make any of these circumstances lead to increased grind and if more than one of these factors is at work the problem gets worse.

I think there are so many causes (many of which are non-mechanical) that any mechanical fix that addresses them all is likely to cause as many problems as it solves. If a group experiences grind because the players choose to design a party that is Defender and Leader heavy, any fix that helps them is going to screw with groups where the players design parties that are Striker heavy. It's also unlikely to help groups who experience grind because the DM is having a problem with encounter design.

One idea I thought about would be to organize the combat rules into two tiers similar to the GURPS system. Basic combat could be bare bones resolution with fewer options, gridless and designed for speed. Advanced combat could be more involved, detailed and focused on wider tactical options.

It's a neat idea that may be good for other reasons, but I'm not sure it really addresses grind. If the definition of grind is a combat that drags on after the resolution is no longer in question and the PCs have no significant choices to make, then a simpler combat system might (note might, not will) just take every combat and turn it into a grind by further reducing the number of significant choices to be made from the outset. I have also not found that the complex tactical considerations of 4e combat take up a ton of real world time. There are interesting choices to be made, but synergizing interesting tactical options doesn't necessarily take more real world time than every player making a basic attack over and over again. For example, in the other grind thread, I pointed out that my grindy combats take about the same amount of time as some of my most interesting combats (and in some cases, the grinds take less time). The issue isn't real world time per se, it's how much real world time is wasted finishing a fight that has lost any sense of excitement.

Another advantage would be that basic combat, being less involved, would be easier for newbies to get into. Thoughts?

This is an advantage of simplified rules. However, if the goal is to play a tactically complex game, the newbies are going to have to learn the tactics eventually. If the learning process is a problem, including two options is just postponing the inevitable. Personally, I haven't found that the learning curve for 4e is particularly steep for people who are interested in tactical complexity. For those who aren't interested in learning, they would probably benefit greatly from an alternate, optional, basic combat system (or just playing a different game).

 

[Amaroq]

My group is finding that we take 17 minutes per round: 4 players, 1 DM, paragon levels (13-14). So, a typical fight, 6 rounds, is taking us pretty much on 2 hours, and a long-lasting one can go 3 or more.

The problem, the point where it feels like a "grind", occurs at that instant where the tension goes out of the fight: we the party know we've won it, we've eliminated all of the bad guys except for the flying Elite, who has demonstrated that he can't knock an un-bloodied character unconscious, so as long as we can heal to stay above bloodied, we're in no danger ... we've blocked the exit so he can't escape ... and now we're just whittling down the hit points.

Group construction is Fighter, Warden, Druid, Warlock, so two Defenders, a Leader, and a Striker .. we might be better suited to get through things with a second Striker or a Controller.

So, it was jbear's post that most resonated with me: repeated for emphasis:

If the fight is lost monster retreat or surrender... I don't always play all creatures to their maximum defensive tactical capabilty in so far as avoidng opportunity attacks and marking penalties unless i consider them hihlt trained or organised creatures. My brutes with massive amounts of hp are quite prepared to wade through 3 opportunity attacks to charge the sorcerer if there is a decent reason why. Actually, achieving cAdv is often reason enough. This way they tend to hit more accurately, harder, and where it hurts but they get hit a lot more and so go down faster themselves. This also gives players lots of stuff to do when its not their turn, keeping their attention on the game.

Some of the most memorable combats had a concrete goal to achieve success other than kill everything that moves. Once that point was achieved, combat ended.

These are great chunks of advice.

Our other game does a very good job of avoiding a "grind" feeling because the DM is willing to have creatures abandon the field and flee rather than continue in a vain effort.

Likewise, playing to perfect defensive advantage leads to a real grind situation. Take opportunity attacks, ignore the fighter's mark, etc: those extra attacks will add up to additional damage, and that will move things to their conclusion more quickly.

Last, goals other than "kill everything" are pretty key to long-term games: one of my favorite recent encounters involved a "I've taken your mounts hostage and we're killing them" mechanic, with the villain playing Bond-villain and having his minions winch the sadistic torture-death device a step further every round. As a Standard. With the rest of the bad guys doing their best to keep us from getting to the mounts ... really, the fight would have been easy had we simply stood and fought, but the feeling of time pressure (and the indeterminate nature of the deadline) forced us to bypass the defense to reach and take out the minions .. and that forced us to separate .. and all in all, it was awesome! And made the encounter infinitely more entertaining than it would have been.

 

[Hussar]

I've just started playing 4e, with two different groups and I see the grind in one group but not the other. In the grindy group, there is at least one player, and possible two, who refuses to learn the rules and thus drags the game down into a morass of waiting time between actions. Grr. Simple fights can take three hours. Drives me batty. But, this is not a system issue, but a player one.

In the non-grindy group, we get through combats (1st level - Oakhurst Reloaded) in about 40 minutes per combat. I'm playing a Leader, which means I'm forcing other players to act on my turn as well as taking my turn. Generally means that someone is doing something all the time and I think it really focuses attention, which certainly reduces the grind feeling.

I'm not sure if the "grind" has more to do with player issues than rule issues to be honest. If you get your players trained (like MerricB has - WOW) then grind goes away completely. A bit of a sit down with the players and forcing them to work through the rules, using power cards that are easily readable, setting up standard formats for taking turns, same as you do in any other game, I think would drastically reduce grind.