Why is Eberron being pushed so hard?

Belegbeth said:
Authors: Tolkien, Leiber, Howard, Vance, et al. In recent years, IMO, R.R. Martin could probably be added, as well as Gene Wolf.

(Of TSR/WotC settings, Greyhawk is probably the closest to a "classic fantasy" setting, at least the Gygaxian version. Still a bit too "over-the-top" in terms of magic IMO.)
Gene Wolfe is classic fantasy? The Wizard Knight, maybe, but that's fairly new, isn't it? The whole New Sun series was science-fiction, and I thought that's what he's famous for. I love Martin, but I wouldn't call his material classic fantasy, either. In fact, I'd call it a direct reaction to classic fantasy, IMHO.

Tolkien, Leiber, Howard and Vance are all direct inspirations, but it was never meant to be consistent, I think. It's a 'wouldn't it be cool if...' on a grand scale, when a miniatures game got much bigger than anyone expected.
 
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WizarDru said:
Gene Wolfe is classic fantasy? The Wizard Knight, maybe, but that's fairly new. The whole New Sun series was science-fiction, and I thought that's what he's famous for. I love Martin, but I wouldn't call his material classic fantasy, either. In fact, I'd call it a direct reaction to classic fantasy, IMHO..

Whether Wolfe's New Sun series is science-fiction or fantasy is not clear. It includes a lot of weird Cabbalist references, diferent planes, etc. If any thing, it is a series of "gothic" novels that invoke a sense of wonder at these ancient "magical" (where science is perceived as magic) relics and places. (Though perhaps I was wrong to include Wolfe.)

Martin's novels, with their gritty tone and moral ambiguity, might be interpreted as a reaction against Tolkien, but they do not seem like a separate beast from, say, Leiber or Vance (indeed, the political intrigues, etc., seem very similar to some of the stuff in Vance's Lyonesse novels).

WizarDru said:
Tolkien, Leiber, Howard and Vance are all direct inspirations, but it was never meant to be consistent, I think. It's a 'wouldn't it be cool if...' on a grand scale, when a miniatures game got much bigger than anyone expected.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand this. :)
 

Nisarg said:
Its not nescessarily flawed for YOU. if you don't mind Kitchen-sinkism, if you don't have the kind of humanities background I do where Eberron's social unbelievability would bug you, then go nuts.
You have yet to explain this at all. All you have said (if I understood you correctly) is that it does a poor job of emulating the development of philsophy as it occurred in this world. I can't wrap my head around the notion that this problem is unique to Eberron. Honestly, unless you can explain a) how that's different from every other setting under the sun; and b) why such parallel development would even be reasonable given the world assumptions implicit in D&D magic, then I can't even begin to imagine which games you would actually enjoy playing.

If you think this is a legitimate gripe, please explain yourself. I, for one, am curious.
 

Canis said:
You have yet to explain this at all. All you have said (if I understood you correctly) is that it does a poor job of emulating the development of philsophy as it occurred in this world. I can't wrap my head around the notion that this problem is unique to Eberron. Honestly, unless you can explain a) how that's different from every other setting under the sun; and b) why such parallel development would even be reasonable given the world assumptions implicit in D&D magic, then I can't even begin to imagine which games you would actually enjoy playing.

If you think this is a legitimate gripe, please explain yourself. I, for one, am curious.

The idea isn't that complicated, but it is a little obtuse. Western medieval society existed at a certian technolgical level, and had certian characteristics that we are familer with: Knights, Kings, feudalism, pesents, surfs, etc... Nisarg's argument is that when increase the technology level (even thruogh magic) many elements would cease to exists, because people's philosophical outlook changes. While I don't think He's said this spicificly, the rise of a merchantile class like the Houses in Eberron did hamper western medieval society's most distinguashed feature: fedualisim. Europe's been putting the nails into feudalism for centuries now. Russia didn't free their serfs untill Tolstoy's time. (1861) Serfs in China didn't get freed until 1949.

Feudalisim is an interesting concept. As I'm sure most people know, the king (or other sovereign) owns all the land in the kingdom and parcels it out to other nobility who manage it for him and round up troops when there's a war. D&D has never handled this concept well. Indeed, most american fantasy dosn't handel it well. Because americans come from a culture where land ownership is an integeral part of the the American Dream(TM), I think it's hard to wrap our minds around some of the finer points of feudalisim. Also, true feudalisim doesn't facilitate good game play. Why? Well, if the landlord owns all the land, they one everything in it. the own the animals, the minerals, and the surfs. (Cities were an exception, but that is neither here nor there) Thus, when adventures go exploring in a dungeon, kill the monsters and take their loot, all the loot technicaly belongs to the landlord (be it a barron, duke, lord, or king). Hunting on a noble's land to feed yourself is a no no under feudalisim.

You'll notice that there are no serfs in D&D. I've never thought to myself, "gee, you know we need to make this game more realisitic, lets add serfs!"

Many of the trapings of medieval society we think of when we think of the word medieval still existed through the Renaissance into modern times. Divine right was argued by sovereigns right up untill they were killed (some not untill after the US Constitution was signed).

Of course, history isn't a linier progression that starts with civilization in the fertial cressant to the internet. There were lots fits and starts, parallel devlopments in diffrent cultures, and false leads.

You are right in that the problem isn't unique to Eberron, but Eberron is the only one with a tech level above the prining press intergreted into the regular society. Other D&D settings assume such magic items are rare, common for adventures maybe, but not for pesents. A potion of Cure Light Wounds is what 50gp? That's more than a years wages for a pesent. Eberron assumes larger merchant class than Greyhawk does, and a more powerful one at that.

The problem with trying to figure out how magic would impact a world is that magic dosen't exist. Figuring out what kind of impact magic would have on human history is near imposible. Yes, people belived in magic then (and many do now) but because it doesn't exist, we don't how it's actual existance (as opposed to it's precived existance) affects humans. How would the ability to create a 40-foot diamiter ball of fire affect history? No one really knows.
 
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Hmmm... nothing like a discussion that encompasses console RPGs, D&D and the divine right of kings to draw me out of ENWorld lurker0dom. :D

Calling Eberron 'medieval' depends on what you mean by 'medieval.' It clearly isn't a feudal society, at least in the sense of a having a landed economy or widespread serfdom. The Last War connects directly to World War I in both its methods and its scope. The concept of nation-states is paramount. (Technological development proceeded at a rapid clip through the high middle ages, and did not, contrary to popular belief, experience a major renaissance in the renaissance.)

If by 'medieval' you mean Eberron has kings, knights and swordsmen... so did the ancient world, and so did the world prior to actual World War I. That war, not any social, philosophical or, goodness knows, technological development, ended the preponderance of monarchial governments in Europe. France and the United States were the only powers involved that didn't have monarchs, and of the constitutional monarchs, only England's did not possess (or at least did not use) executive powers. WW1's aftermath, the spread of communism and fascism, finished off most of the rest.

If by 'medieval' you mean Eberron has the trappings of medieval legends - heroic knights, chivalry, paladins, swords and sorcery - it has those in spades. Since that's really all any D&D setting (and most other fantasies) have of the medieval period, Eberron has as much claim to being medieval as Greyhawk or the Realms.

As for its appeal to console gamers (or video gamers, if you prefer), by which I mean people who play Final Fantasy, Xenosaga and Wild ARMs, yes, the presence of magical technology, especially airships, does endear it to that market, as does the 'pulp' flavor. This 'Joe Playstation' segment seems WotC's most likely target since, unlike PC gamers, they've been conditioned to expect a hearty serving of storytelling and character development to go with their hack-'n'-slash.

I do shudder to think what kind of players an MMORPG will bring in to Eberron, though. ;)
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
If by 'medieval' you mean Eberron has kings, knights and swordsmen... so did the ancient world, and so did the world prior to actual World War I. That war, not any social, philosophical or, goodness knows, technological development, ended the preponderance of monarchial governments in Europe. France and the United States were the only powers involved that didn't have monarchs, and of the constitutional monarchs, only England's did not possess (or at least did not use) executive powers. WW1's aftermath, the spread of communism and fascism, finished off most of the rest.

I think you have a point. We have a tendancy to overlook WWI in America, and I think understanding of pre-WWI Eruope isn't wide spread. I know that I didn't understand a lot of it untill I took a college level history class, and I'm still shaky on some details. Everyone alive today lives in a post industrial revolution, post WWI world, but I think that it is WWII that people most think about shaping our current culture.
 

fanboy2000 said:
I think you have a point. We have a tendancy to overlook WWI in America, and I think understanding of pre-WWI Eruope isn't wide spread. I know that I didn't understand a lot of it untill I took a college level history class, and I'm still shaky on some details. Everyone alive today lives in a post industrial revolution, post WWI world, but I think that it is WWII that people most think about shaping our current culture.

Not being American, I don't share that historical fault.

And that's my point. WWI led to a total shattering of what was already a very shaky confidence in the institutional value of western civilization. A confidence that had been eroded over centuries since the time of the renaissance. Each technological innovation led to shifts in society, because the intellectual environment DEMANDED these shifts. It was impossible to retain a medieval society in the face of the printing press, and mercantilism. It was impossible to retain a renaissance society in the face of industrialization, and it was impossible to retain an absolutist intellectual environment in light of WWI. This was what caused the rise of artistic and intellectual movements like dadaism and surrealism, philosophical concepts of relativism, and counter-movements like fascism.

I'm not talking about "swords" as in medieval. Swords does not medieval make. A certain intellectual "feeling" is what makes a medieval setting. And what I'm saying is that its intellectually impossible for me to believably buy the idea that people could go through WWI or many of the other events/technologies Eberron proposes and still have that medievalist "intellectual attitude".

(at least in the regions where these developments took place, of course there could be backwards regions still wallowing in medievalism; within credible limits of distance and interaction though, since as long as they were on the same continent inevitably these developments would catch up with all but the most backward societies)

It would have been so much better if Breland and the other main nations in Eberron had a kind of deeply cynical, hedonistic Georgian attitude.. so not just Doc Savage and Indiana Jones but the Great Gatsby and Farewell to Arms. If they'd made the setting live up to the real consequences of the events of its timeline, and you had real social chaos as a result of the Last War, instead of this "oh well wasn't that horrible but we're still medieval" business...

Nisarg
 

So, it seems to come down to the fact that there are different interpretations of what "medieval" actually means, right?

Nisarg (and probably some others) thinks it is the philosophy of the time, many other think it are more the elements of "Knights, Swords and Kings".

While I think Nisargs point of view is not wrong, I think it does also invalidate some other "medieval" settings.
To me Forgotten Realms don`t seem to be that medieval in philosophy - hell, they even seem to believe even in in equal rights for women!

But the "everything and the kitchen-sink" approach seems to be more fitting for other D&D settings. (Excuse me if I use Forgotten Realms again - I know the setting best from all "classic" D&D settings - but even then my knowledge is not that firm). Forgotten Realms does have the same - even worse - doesn`t te world also contain Kara-Tur and Matztica and its unique races and monsters? And doesn`t it also include all those subraces (who are currently unused in Eberron - though it introduces a few new races)?

Mustrum Ridcully
 

Nisarg said:
I'm not talking about "swords" as in medieval. Swords does not medieval make. A certain intellectual "feeling" is what makes a medieval setting. And what I'm saying is that its intellectually impossible for me to believably buy the idea that people could go through WWI or many of the other events/technologies Eberron proposes and still have that medievalist "intellectual attitude".
However, that's also where your position's credibility starts to crumble. Nothing in D&D is truly medieval in that regard, so to take Eberron to task for this is silly. If you want medievel fantasy (a contradiction, I know, since there was nothing fantastic about the medieval period) then Hârn is the only game/setting that even really attempts to deliver.

Also, your insistence that a fantasy world follow all the same steps as our own for intellectual development: a little silly.
 

Nisarg said:
And that's my point. WWI led to a total shattering of what was already a very shaky confidence in the institutional value of western civilization.

Now you are indulging in the essentially the same parochialism. This may have been the result in Europe, but it was certainly not the result in the USA, in most of Asia, etc.
 

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