Why is everyone so down on Charm Person?

[Jeremy757]

After seeing how powerfully this issue resonates with people, I wouldn't mock it. I've been partly persuaded, too -- I might not be doing my job as a DM by letting people charm all the time without affecting their alignment.

I remember stopping for red lights in Grand Theft Auto, the first time I played it. Good times.

Mock it? Yeah, maybe a little. I think because the assumption is made that people should play the same way and characters should have the same values as we have. Yes, it is morally wrong to take someones free will away from them, but its no different than killing a living creature (which is kind of what the game is about). And not everyone plays characters that share the same moral values that we or the player does.

I don't think I have ever been in a game where anyone actually mind-raped anyone, but in the Exalted game I run the players are very much playing "the greater good" kind of characters and many an npc has lost their free will to the Zenith and Eclipse. But I don't see anything wrong with wanting to play flawed characters who make bad choices (by our standards) as long as everyone at the table is cool with it and the GM makes sure the consequence of those actions are properly realized in-game.

 

[Dausuul]

Mock it? Yeah, maybe a little. I think because the assumption is made that people should play the same way and characters should have the same values as we have. Yes, it is morally wrong to take someones free will away from them, but its no different than killing a living creature (which is kind of what the game is about). And not everyone plays characters that share the same moral values that we or the player does.

Well, I'm certainly not going to claim that casting charm person on people is worse than killing them. That doesn't mean it's morally okay to go around doing it to everybody whenever you want - any more than it's okay to go around killing people whenever you want.

Now, if you're playing a game in which the PCs are sociopathic serial killers, then yeah, a few charm spells aren't going to take them across any moral lines they haven't already left far behind. But if you're playing a game in which the PCs are soldiers fighting to defend their country, then using charm person to get laid is going to be an issue.

 

[Jeremy757]

Well, I'm certainly not going to claim that casting charm person on people is worse than killing them. That doesn't mean it's morally okay to go around doing it to everybody whenever you want - any more than it's okay to go around killing people whenever you want.

Oh I didn't mean to suggest that it was worse, just that they were both morally wrong ways of taking someones free will away and both have lasting repercussions.

 

[Nifft]

Some random stranger comes up to you, and (to an unusual extent) controls your mind/emotions without you so much as being asked, and you'd be fine with it.

Happens to me all the time.

This "tech" is called

Spoiler

make up

.

"Tested On Apes!", -- N

 

[Starbuck_II]

I want a charm person you could use to cheer up an angry baby. And I don't see in the spell description why you shouldn't. Do I have to make it a house rule?

That would be called Calm Emotions higher level spell. Stops Barbarian's from raging as well.

 

[S'mon]

If the PC works with the charmee's natural inclinations, there won't be any backlash. Eg IMC a Wizard PC charmed a female pirate leader to prevent a pirate attack on a village. He acted courteously towards her (including politely deflecting her romantic advances) and left her with fond memories after the charm wore off. If he'd abused her she'd have been angry and he'd have made a dangerous enemy.

 

[cangrejoide]

Use charm person to get a date, and many people will accuse you of mind rape.

Okay I think I am confused here, do you see nothing wrong with the that situation?

 

[Treebore]

I guess most of you people have been lucky enough to never run into a "Charming person" who sweeps you off your feet and gets you into all kinds of things you never would have done if you hadn't met them.

Anyways, thats how I adjudicate Charm Person, its makes you, temporarily, into an extremely charming person and the spell makes the target have as positive an opinion about everything you say or do, no matter how much of a putz you may really be.

It is not "mind control", it is mind persuasion, hence the checks, or decisions by me based on how you RP it. The spell influences the target to simply look and feel as positive about you as is possible, irregardless of how you would be reacted too normally.

Frankly, Charm Person and super high Charisma (21+), are probably identical in the effects they should have on how persuadable a person is. Unless they have similarly high Wisdom too see through your "charms".

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Frankly, Charm Person and super high Charisma (21+), are probably identical in the effects they should have on how persuadable a person is. Unless they have similarly high Wisdom too see through your "charms".

I'm going to have to disagree with that.

You can actively dislike someone who is charismatic. Maybe you dislike their political positions. Maybe you just don't want to listen to what they say. Maybe you know that they're actually a horrible person, but since no one can prove they were behind all those murders but you know they were... Charm is more powerful than just having a high Charisma.

Top give an example, Xykon (the lich) is quite charismatic. (He's the leader of a fairly large evil horde, after all.) Roy has reasons to hate him.

If Xykon successfully charms Roy, then Xykon is Roy's best friend for 1 hour/level (barring some kind of countering magic). There is no charismatic person in the world who could do that sort of thing. A charismatic person can only indirectly influence someone's emotions, unlike a spell.

(It's so hard to give good examples, as we're not allowed to talk about politics.)

 

[Barastrondo]

I guess most of you people have been lucky enough to never run into a "Charming person" who sweeps you off your feet and gets you into all kinds of things you never would have done if you hadn't met them.

I think that would probably be a more appropriate example for a spell that temporarily increased your Charisma or social skills than for a spell that compelled you to view someone in a very flattering light. One increases your own capabilities — the other alters the other person's thoughts and perceptions. The difference between the two is, well, why ethical questions arise.