Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Zurai]

Clerics are good at type 1 and can rarely perform type 2.

The spells in question in this thread are just as viable at type 2 as any wizard spell bar Legion's Hold.

 

[Samurai]

Well that sucks... I guess your party doesn't want to play like a team, then yeah, Wizard has a huge disadvantage... though, you are unlikely to freeze all enemies in the effects. If you do, you are hugely controlling the battle already, and the actions of a couple of your teammates *may* not be too harmful to your overwhelming victory. If they decide to move next to the immobilized melee monsters inside an Evard's.... get some new teammates...

I think the frustration comes from the players and is simply expressed through the characters. It's like, "Ok, combat time!" and everyone pulls out their powers sheet to decide what they want to lead off with... and then 1 player starts throwing zones in front of them, preventing them from using any of their own cool powers or abilities unless they are willing to step into it and take the same damage as the foes. Yeah, they could plink away with a basic ranged attack, but why have all these cool powers (that only work at melee range) if you don't get to use them? Even if the battle is going your way because the Wizard is doing well, how fun is it for the players of melee combatants to just stand in a line and wait, round after round, for someone to come through, or to just use basic ranged attacks? Wasn't the point of 4e to give every class cool powers and abilities they can use?

 

[DemonLord57]

I think the frustration comes from the players and is simply expressed through the characters. It's like, "Ok, combat time!" and everyone pulls out their powers sheet to decide what they want to lead off with... and then 1 player starts throwing zones in front of them, preventing them from using any of their own cool powers or abilities unless they are willing to step into it and take the same damage as the foes. Yeah, they could plink away with a basic ranged attack, but why have all these cool powers (that only work at melee range) if you don't get to use them? Even if the battle is going your way because the Wizard is doing well, how fun is it for the players of melee combatants to just stand in a line and wait, round after round, for someone to come through, or to just use basic ranged attacks? Wasn't the point of 4e to give every class cool powers and abilities they can use?

Well my point was that if the wizard did manage to get all of the enemy combatants trapped, then either he wasted way too many of his resources (dailies) or he got lucky, but either way the battle will be significantly easier. I'd rather not use my powers and win easily than do something reckless and jeporadize the entire party. I don't care about hitting with powerful powers, I care about winning. Maybe I'm just more team oriented than others, but I think of the party as a group that works together efficiently and effectively to win a combat, not a bunch of people trying to show off their cool powers. Again, my group could be quite different from others' groups/feelings, and again, I'm not saying there would be anything wrong with that if you do play like that, just that I don't play like that, and the concept seems foreign to me.

If the wizard has it handled, I'll save my cool powers for when an enemy escapes. The wizard shouldn't manage to do this with any real frequency, and if he is the DM is likely doing something wrong.

 

[Pickles JG]

It is the best among the level 29 spells.

And it has a "save ends" effect on a miss unlike the salutation, with spell focus that's possibly an extra turn of combat advantage, no OAs, and flanking.

But you're right - Destructive Salutation is nothing to scoff at!

Cheers, LT.

Oddly you might prefer to miss with Destructive Salutation if you have Orb mastery & the Orb of Continuance. That guarantees 3 round stun on a given mob, using your enc & daily orb powers. If you hit saves at -9 say with the orb encounter penalty on an Archvillain er Solo are only 65% likely to stick so 27% ish of getting 3 rounds. Against an Elite it's good odds (well 50%) & normals are buggered.

I believe that Wizards have access to item abilities & Archmage factored into their powers. They get a single target encounter stun at level 23 while rogues & fighters get one at level 13. The wizards one is easily extended to 2 or 3 rounds. They geta stun but you cant attack teh target at level 17 too.

This might apply to Astral fire or Fire Storm vsd the Wizards analogues but if so I think they went too far & the damage Archetype for Wizards is not quite good enough. (guessing ofc not really played level 20+)

 

[Puggins]

Because it also keeps your party out of the combat, or it hurts them as much as your enemies. In my party of 4, I'm the only real ranged attacker. One other character has a few ranged attacks, but then has to stitch to melee, and the other 2 characters are 100% melee. Preventing the rest of my party from using their abilities/powers leads to my party getting pissed off with me, and on multiple occasions charging through my damaging zones just to get at the foes, even though they suffer just as much as the enemies. The other characters have threatened to attack me if I put up another damaging zone in their way again, as they consider it to be "helping the enemy!"

This is a classical problem facing the control wizard. Two things need to occur:

(1) Your group-mates need to recognize that dividing the enemy is very, very effective.
(2) You need to make sure you have a back-up plan for when zone effects are not necessary or desirable.

The real major benefit of the Cleric spells, besides their greater damage, is the fact that they automatically only target enemies. You can throw an Astral Storm on top of a furious melee battle between the rest of your party and a half dozen enemies and neither you nor your allies has to worry 1 bit about collateral damage. The Wizard doesn't get that choice far too many times

... because the effects produced by the wizard spell are so absolutely deadly. Necrotic Web placed in the proper spot will immobilize half an enemy force for at least two rounds and inflict a minimum of 12d6+int damage on a hit. By the time they get out of the web- slightly weakened by the damage, no less- their allies will have been destroyed by your party. The cleric gets to damage them- wonderful, except they are capable of dealing damage in return. The wizard doesn't permit the return damage.

 

[Puggins]

You can answer your own question by comparing what damage the wizard spells do of the same level. You may then realize what all the hub bub is about.

I realize what the hub-bub is all about, I simply disagree with it.

Just think about it, if you saw an enemy cast an Evard's what would you do? I'll tell you what you would do, you would push pull and slide to use the power against the enemy.

At this level, if the defenders, leaders and strikers in your party can't control the battlefield then you probably shouldn't bother using Evard's cuz it will just make a bad situation even worse. If on the other hand your party can handle the situation, well then Evard's will just get in their way.

In other words, Evard's can work against you if (a) the circumstances aren't right, or (b) your fellow adventurers suck. Absolutely agree. Still doesn't make Evard's a worse spell. It's simply situational. In the right situation, it will win you the encounter, virtually outright.

The beauty of Fire Storm is that it can never be used against you. It will work just about in any situation. And don't dismiss the damage, 40 points plus 18 points per round against to 6 to 10, 180 hit point, n-2 monsters should not be dismissed so easily.

You're overstating the damage. It's actually 28 up front and 11.5 per round. Certainly not bad, but they're unlikely to stay in that area. If They're FORCED to stay in that area, then you're describing a situation where yes, fire storm is plain better than evard's, because evard's main strength is that it FORCES creatures to stay in its area for a long, long time. I n most cases, I'm betting that 6 to 10 180hp creatures will not be forced to stay in that area.

In an epic level fight, where a push, pull, and slide can come just as easily from both sides of the battlefield, I choose Fire Storm over Evard's or Cloudkill any day or any place.

This is all theory right now- no one has played those levels, so hell, you might be right. But Evard's ablity to constrain practically anything inside of it for a long period of time is remarkably effective. Firestorm will be a mere pin-prick against, say, an adult blue dragon, but evard's will hold it for a couple of rounds while the party deals with the trash surrounding the dragon AND it'll do a healthy amount of damage too. Sounds pretty good to me,

 

[Goumindong]

Roxlimm... I may be misunderstanding, but those don't sound like any reason that meteor swarm is better. They'd all be just as effective, if not more effective, using astral storm.

That is to say, if you gave the wizard an Int-based Astral Storm, would anyone 'prepare' Meteor Swarm over it?

Because when you look at Warlock and Ranger powers you have to add 3d6 damage/round on top of what is listed.

The spells in question in this thread are just as viable at type 2 as any wizard spell bar Legion's Hold.

Not nearly, they also aren't nearly as good at causing damage.

Damage in 4e is technically control. But only because minions exist. And when dealing with minions the amount of damage is not very significant. If you are tossing control effects around you need to be doing two things.

1. Keeping enemies from taking actions

2. Setting up Coup-de-grace for your strikers to unload their encounter/daily powers into an auto-crit.

Clerics have a few powers decent at clearing minions. Clerics do not have many good at keeping enemies from taking actions or setting up auto-crits.

And if you are really worried about minions, what matters is being able to do that AoE damage consistantly(excuse my while i pimp my at will, ranged 2 burst 4 AoE which also knocks back non-minions to be dealt with later), rather than in large amounts.

AoE damage is control, but you only need 1 point.

 

[DemonLord57]

(excuse my while i pimp my at will, ranged 2 burst 4 AoE which also knocks back non-minions to be dealt with later)

I hope you mean blast, and are talking about a Resounding Thundered, Arcane Reached, Thunderwave. Otherwise, did they come out with another Dragon magazine? (lol)

AoE damage is control, but you only need 1 point.

Agreed. (though more damage never hurts... well actually, I guess it does...)

 

[keterys]

Because when you look at Warlock and Ranger powers you have to add 3d6 damage/round on top of what is listed.

Not when comparing to other powers you don't. Comparing to other classes, sure.

 

[Victim]

Oddly you might prefer to miss with Destructive Salutation if you have Orb mastery & the Orb of Continuance. That guarantees 3 round stun on a given mob, using your enc & daily orb powers. If you hit saves at -9 say with the orb encounter penalty on an Archvillain er Solo are only 65% likely to stick so 27% ish of getting 3 rounds. Against an Elite it's good odds (well 50%) & normals are buggered.

Orb Mastery only extends the duration of at will powers. You can't use it to extend a missed Destructive Salutation.