Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Goumindong]

Not when comparing to other powers you don't. Comparing to other classes, sure.

If the powers from from different classes then you do. If i am comparing the striking ability of a Wizard with Warlock you have to compare the curse on top of it.

Comparing powers accross classes and then ignoring what those classes can do with those powers by combining them with other abilities is certified retarded.

Orb Mastery only extends the duration of at will powers. You can't use it to extend a missed Destructive Salutation.

Indeed, i went back and checked, and this is true. The auto extend is only for at-wills.

That guarantees 3 round stun on a given mob

2 round.

Miss -> Stun till end of next turn
Extend 1 round
Miss -> End of second turn

Wizard attacks: Misses, Enemy is stunned
Enemy Loses Action
Wizard Extends via Orb, Wizard takes second turn
Enemy loses Action
Wizard does something else, Wizard takes second turn, effect ends

Agreed. (though more damage never hurts... well actually, I guess it does...)

It does help when you are hitting enemies that are resistent or immune. But these powers ought to be doing enough to avoid that most of the time, minions with very high resistance are rare, you will usually have many different types of AoE damage, and there are at least two feats available to increase an enemies vulnerability to a damage type.

Astral Storm is great at clearing out minions however(since you have to resist all of it to not take damage), but i doubt many of the Other AoEs are going to fare much worse once you know have deduced their resistances.

I hope you mean blast, and are talking about a Resounding Thundered, Arcane Reached, Thunderwave. Otherwise, did they come out with another Dragon magazine? (lol)

I do indeed mean blast.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

It's actually 28 up front and 11.5 per round.

Firestorm will be a mere pin-prick...

A pinprick you say...

The theory:
"War Wizard - Your delight is in powers that deal damage-lots of damage, to many foes at a time." - PHB 4.0, page 157.

Set-up:
19th level cleric with 19th level power, stats, magic, and feats
vs
29th level wizard with 29th level power, stats, magic, and feats
vs
29th level rogue with 29th, blah, blah, blah

Math 1:
29th level wizard casts Meteor Swarm (quintessential "war wizard" spell): 28 base +9/+6/+3 = 46 damage AoE.

Math 2:
19th level cleric casts Fire Storm: On initial cast: 27.5 base +7/+4/+2 (stat/implement/feat) = 40.5 damage. Cycle to enemy's turn, inflict auto damage: 5.5 base +7/+4/+2 = 18.5 damage. Total 1st round damage = 40.5 +18.5 = 59 damage AoE. (or 39 damage on a miss)

Math 3:
29th level rogue uses Hurricane of Blood +5d8 sneak attack: 58 damage vs a single opponent (trust me on the math, or do it yourself).

Compare data:
-29th level "war" wizard does 46 points AoE (57 w/bolster blood)
-29th level "striker" rogue does 58 points w/SA to a single guy
-19th level cleric does does 59 points AoE + ongoing damage

In conclusion:
-A 19th level cleric out damages 29th level "war wizard" doing 29th level striker damage AoE!!

Who needs control with damage output like that?


Evard's you say... while the control wizard is "fighting" his opponents, blinding 'em, dazing 'em, stunning 'em, pricking 'em here and there... He wastes 8, 9, 10+ rounds worth of powers playing footzie with the beasties.

Then he makes camp for an extended rest...


Your better off trading in that wizard for a second cleric, bask in your twin cleric healing potential, cast a second Fire Storm, and pulverize the 200 hit point padded sumos in 3 or 4 short rounds.

Continue on for a milestone...


Did someone say pin-prick?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Area damage is control because it gives compelling reason to the enemy not to bunch up. Which makes anyone surrounded by them happy, and makes life easier for Strikers.
It's particularly strong against Minions, but it is also effective against regular monsters. You deal more damage if they don't scatter, and they are more vulnerable against other characters attacks if they do.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Area damage is control because it gives compelling reason to the enemy not to bunch up. Which makes anyone surrounded by them happy, and makes life easier for Strikers.

If you follow that line of thought, cleric area damage control is much better - because when do you *really* want your enemies to spread out a lot? If they're surrounding you. This can easily happen with some sneaky minions.

Sure, one could argue that that becomes the defender's job (which he can do remarkably well!), but... then, why can the cleric do that?

Cheers, LT.

 

[Minigiant]

Those are some weird powers you picked for comparison. Meteor Swarm sucks. Hurricane of blood is an encounter power.

A war wizard picks Greater Ice Storm and drops Blackfire and/or Acid Storm on their immobile butts next urn.

But if you're a war wizard, you're doing it wrong. War wizards nuke solos and elites. Ranged 20, man.

 

[keterys]

If the powers from from different classes then you do. If i am comparing the striking ability of a Wizard with Warlock you have to compare the curse on top of it.

Then you're comparing classes.

You can, however, compare meteor swarm to astral storm without factoring what class it comes from, at all. In such a comparison, meteor swarm compares horribly. Unfortunately, there are many powers that show signs of poor balancing. The most amusing (and useful for proving a problem) are things like Steel Serpent Strike and Dance of Steel.

Comparing powers accross classes and then ignoring what those classes can do with those powers by combining them with other abilities is certified retarded.

Or, it's a really good way to ensure power balance. Hint: Read Eternal Seeker. Also, multiclassing rules. Also, consider power balancing for every class that will come in the future. Powers should roughly balance against each other. It's implicit in the system design.

As a suggestion, don't call people on messageboards retarded. Either they're not, and you're basically guaranteed to come off in a less than complimentary fashion (and might quite possibly be making some major mistakes yourself) or they _are_, in which case there's a better term for it.

No, you can orb mastery any "effect ends at end of next turn" and any wizard power that has an effect that a save can end.

You can only extend an at-will effect. p157 PHB.

 

[AtomicPope]

Math 3:
29th level rogue uses Hurricane of Blood +5d8 sneak attack: 58 damage vs a single opponent (trust me on the math, or do it yourself).

Hurricane of Blood is an encounter power. If you compared the Damage to Assassin's Point you would have a Rogue that did upwards of 250pts of damage or more in a single hit.

Other than that I completely agree with you. Clerics can out perform Wizards in controlling with quite a few of their spells. It saddens me that this slipped through the playtesting cracks. I think Plane Sailing has it right in moving Fire Storm and Astral Storm to the Wizard Spell lists and give Clerics access to something else (like Meteor Swarm ). Those two spells put Wizards out of business for Controller damage spells - period.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Comparing powers accross classes and then ignoring what those classes can do with those powers by combining them with other abilities is certified retarded.

Don't be rude to other people here with remarks like that.

Thanks

 

[Mongolia Jones]

Those are some weird powers you picked for comparison. Meteor Swarm sucks. Hurricane of blood is an encounter power.

A war wizard picks Greater Ice Storm and drops Blackfire and/or Acid Storm on their immobile butts next urn.

But if you're a war wizard, you're doing it wrong. War wizards nuke solos and elites. Ranged 20, man.

1. I chose Hurricane of Blood to establish what typical striker damage is at 29th level, which happens to be 60ish damage. Yes a rogue could get more damage to a single opponent with some dailies, but the Cleric will still do more damage overall in an AoE to multiple opponents.

2. I chose Meteor Swarm because its the most damaging single shot wizard spell in his arsenal. Greater Ice Storm, Black Fire, and Acid Wave all do less damage.

3. you say: Greater Ice Storm +Black Fire -or- Greater Ice Storm +Acid Wave? So a 29th level wizard needs to stack 2 spells to equal the damage output of a single Fire Storm cast from a 19th cleric?
3a. 2 rounds of Fire Storm (round1 +round2) = 59 +18.5 = 77.5 damage.
-vs-
3b. Greater Ice Storm +Black Fire = 36 +39 = 75 damage.
-or vs-
3c. Greater Ice Storm +Acid Wave = 36 +45.5 = 81.5 damage.

Conclusion: I'd rather use a single Fire Storm & a single action rather than two powers & two actions for the same damage, wouldn't you? And be 10 levels lower to boot

4. Are we reading the same message boards?
4a. Wizards suck against Solos
4b. Wizards marginally suck against Elites
4c. Wizards are good with playing footsie against Normals
4d. Wizards are great against 1hp Minions

 

[DemonLord57]

4. Are we reading the same message boards?
4a. Wizards suck against Solos
4b. Wizards marginally suck against Elites
4c. Wizards are good with playing footsie against Normals
4d. Wizards are great against 1hp Minions

lol, whut?

No, you are wrong. Wizards can destroy solos and elites. All they need is a good status effect and an orb. Oh sorry, you're out of the encounter for... 2 or 3 rounds, that okay? Sure, we might all coup de grace you during that time, but I'm sure it won't hurt too much.

Besides that, you can use the Bigby's hands, which I think are quite nice. A staff mage is best with them, and can be a rather effective wizard, just not a typical (superior IMO) "control" wizard.

Why do you insist that controlling is "playing footsie"? Do you honestly think that when the Wizard puts nasty effects on the enemies, all of his allies just sit down and say, "Oh, you seem to have some people with status effects, let me stop attacking them so you have to do all the damage yourself and waste multiple dailies on them. I'll take a rest." The point is that you are in a team. You do not do everything on your own. This is a crucial point that you seem to miss. If you are alone and facing enemies, you run away. You are a squishy, and should not attempt to face enemies alone.

When you give enemies status effects, it is not simply for your benefit, it is to the party's benefit. If you hadn't locked those melee guys down, the Defender would've had to engage them, leaving the Controller and Artillery free to hit your party in the face until the Striker managed to get there. Instead, you bypass the melee enemies entirely, and annihilate their more damaging comrades before getting back to them. Which would I prefer, doing 10 more damage to each of the enemies or this? Hmm, that's a hard choice. /sarcasm