Why is Jump skill so useless?

[dcollins]

Im afraid you're wrong. In 3.0, distance jumped was multiplied by speed, so if you're 3 times faster than a normal person, as high level monks usually are, you can jump 3 times as high.

Well, you're right about that, and that rule isn't even limited to running jumps. However, it has nothing to do with "Leap of the Clouds" or any specific monk ability, which is what you were saying above; any character with a higher speed benefits. Monk, barbarian, giant, user of boots of striding and springing, etc.

 

[Kilroy]

I believe the multiplication for speed is only for running jumps.

I don't think the skill description indicates this. There are seperate entries for running and standing high jumps, and the only special Running modifier is for the Run feat (+1/4 distance for running jumps). In 3.0, a monk can clear 20' with a running high jump without much effort. I remember the monk in the epic 3.0 game I played in with the same group being able to leap tall buildings, etc.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As others have said, jump isn't the best thing in the situation you were in because you didn't have the other skills necessary to take advantage of it. That does not mean jump is useless in general, however. In my observation, jump is one of those skills that will seem useless if you let it sit on your character sheet until you really need to jump something. Where it's useful is if you're always on the lookout for opportunities to jump and either your DM is good about placing detailed terrain or you can question him into detail ("so we're in a bar--are there any tables next to the bad guys?" etc).. If there's a table or a rock next to a bad guy, jump on top of it to attack him. (If you have good balance skills, you can jump on top of bannisters or even the backs of chairs). Then claim +1 to hit for higher ground. If there's a chasm separating you from the enemy, jump over it rather than taking the narrow and dangerous bridge across. (As Henry pointed out, with your skill, you can fairly reliably clear 30 foot gaps). If a flying enemy is targetting your party, make a running jump to reach him when he gets to ten-fifteen feet off the ground (remember you don't need to reach his height--just high enough that he's in your reach) and grapple him. Then crash him into the ground either by being heavier than his max carry (flying creatures may not stay aloft with more than a light load) or by preventing him from flying (moving half speed takes a grapple check and unless he's got good manueverability, he'll crash if he doesnt' keep moving).

A good jumper has a lot of options and if you learn to look for them, you may be pleasantly surprised as to the skill's usefulness. It's not Tumble or Concentration but it's not Craft: Basketweaving either.

 

[Kilroy]

(As Henry pointed out, with your skill, you can fairly reliably clear 30 foot gaps)

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This hasn't ever come up. If we're trying to get across jumpable hazards, we tend to have to get the whole party across. This means that we cast Fly on the heavy fighter and they ferry everyone else across, or up, or whatever. If we need to get there in a hurry, it's either Dimension Door time or we leave both fighters, the sorceror and the rog behind.

If a flying enemy is targetting your party, make a running jump to reach him when he gets to ten-fifteen feet off the ground (remember you don't need to reach his height--just high enough that he's in your reach) and grapple him. Then crash him into the ground either by being heavier than his max carry (flying creatures may not stay aloft with more than a light load) or by preventing him from flying (moving half speed takes a grapple check and unless he's got good manueverability, he'll crash if he doesnt' keep moving).

This would work if it was possible to ready a move and an attack, which it isn't. I don't know if it's my DM's house rule or not, but a readied action only works for a move or a standard action, not both. It's un-possible to jump and grapple on a readied action. Any attacking flying creature is going to have reach and/or flyby attack, so it's never going to be 10 feet of the ground to be jumpable at without a readied action.

A good jumper has a lot of options and if you learn to look for them, you may be pleasantly surprised as to the skill's usefulness. It's not Tumble or Concentration but it's not Craft: Basketweaving either.

This is what's irritating to me. I've been watching intently for dozens of games now, and I've never had a chance to use jump before this unfortunate incident. I was quite unpleasantly suprised that the first time I found something I thought might finally be jumpable, it wasn't.

 

[Anax]

Um. Just as a note--there *is* a mechanism by which monks become jumping fiends in 3.5--leap of the clouds isn't there any more, and you don't multiply by speed, but you *do* get +4 for every 10' of speed higher than 30 (and -6 for every 10' slower).

My halfling rogue 3/monk 9 has a jump modifier of +27 (10 str). A strength-focused human pure monk at level 12 could be expected to have a jump modifier of 15 (ranks) + 16 (4 * +4 from +40' speed) + 2 (synergy from Tumble) + 4 (strength modifier) for a total of +36. Is a DC 80 check possible from this point? No. But a DC 40 check is nearly automatic.

If we look at some key points, assuming that the +4 strength modifier stays +4 (which it shouldn't, if the monk isn't finessing), here's what happens at the levels the monk increases in speed:

Level 15: 18 ranks + 20 speed + 2 synergy + 4 strength = +46
Level 18: 21 ranks + 24 speed + 2 synergy + 4 strength = +51
Level 20: 23 ranks + 24 speed + 2 synergy + 4 strength = +53 (no speed increase)

So, 80 is hard. But not impossible. And of course, if you're focusing on mobility, you want to add climb and balance here--plus, you probably want a device that adds some decent amount to your Jump checks. A ring of Jumping, Improved gives another +10. If you have a spare round, a potion of Jump (level 1 caster) costs 50 gp and gives +10. A potion of Jump (level 5 caster) costs 250 and gives +20. (It would be silly to spend too much on this, of course, unless you're really a jumping fiend.)

And your DM will probably let you fudge things somewhat. My own DM will generally let me use Jump and Tumble to cover the bottom portion of a climb at high speed, followed by climb to get the rest of the way to a ledge or to hang on. Likewise, if my 3' tall halfling can manage the seven foot jump (automatic success, DC 28 with a running start) to grab the branch, I'm sure my DM will let me make a tumble check to quickly flip up and make a second leap.


All that said--yes, the Jump DCs are too high if you want major wuxia-style action. If you want vaguely realistic, I'd say that the current DCs are decent: a smart monk can still do some damned impressive acrobatics at mid levels if he cares to try. If you want to do wire-fu, I recommend halving the jump DCs. Of course, if you're aiming for that style of action, you'll want to make a number of other movement tasks easier as well.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

As I type I'm watching Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and just saw the scene where the sword is stolen. The thief and her pursurer do all kinds of amazing jumps and climbs bordering on flying that are impossible for real world but are fantastic for a fantasy world.

I want my Monk 6 / thief-acrobat 1 to begin to move like that or at least have the potential to in a few levels.

I did, too. Pick up a copy of Oriental Adventures and check out the Blade Dancer; it's still valid in 3.5, too, as it was not nerfed in the Dragon article. I got my Planescape DM to let me cook up a variant that cut out the silly sword stuff and need for casting. Is quite fun; I get to do all sorts of funky things, like running across treetops and jumping halfway up a 5-story building without rolling.

Brad

 

[UltimaGabe]

Two books that I would recommend for a player who wants to specialize in Jump (and has a DM who allows access to 3rd-party publishers) would be Races of Stone by WotC and Beyond Monks: d20 by Chainmail Bikini. In Races of Stone, there's a race with a +1 level adjustment called the Goliath- they get all sorts of stuff that help them fight (such as bonuses to Strength, Powerful Build [lets them count as large sized for almost everything except reach], and such), but, in addition to all of this, they have the ability to make a standing long jump or standing high jump as if they were running. So, in other case, most of their jump DCs are cut in half.

Chainmail Bikini's book is a 3.5 book all about Monks. It's got a new Base Class called the Martial Artist (kinda a Fighter-Monk), lots of Monk prestige classes, and a ton of Monk feats. One of such feats is called Leap of the Clouds (in homage to the 3e Monk class ability, although, as I'll show you, this one is considerably better). I can't recall the prerequisites off the top of my head (my friend, who's playing a Monk, has the book at the moment), but a Monk would be able to take the feat around 5th or 6th level, if I'm not mistaken (it's got BAB prereqs, as well as an unarmed speed bonus of +20 feet, I believe). Anyway, it changes the way you determine your jump DCs. If you have the feat, and you want to make a standing high jump, the number of vertical feet becomes the DC (meaning, you roll, and that's how high you jump- so you make vertical standing jumps the way a normal person makes running long jumps). If you get a running start for this high jump, divide the DC by half. If you want to make a standing long jump, divide the DC by 4. If you want to make a running long jump, divide the DC by 8. This is a great improvement to the skill and the old class ability- now, you can actually do something decent with your jump skill- and it's by no means overpowered, considering you can't even get it until Fly spells have been available for a couple levels. (There's another feat, called Unchained Spirit, I believe, which has this as a prerequisite- basically, it lets you fly for a certain number of rounds per day- but that's a different story.)

If you were playing a Goliath Monk with this ability, all of your standing high jumps would be Feet = DC/2. So, if you had 20 ranks and rolled a 10 (for a total of 30), you'd jump 60 feet straight up. If you were, saying, a 19th-level Goliath Monk (since Goliaths have a Level Adjustment of +1), you could do some amazing jumps. Let's assume you rolled an 18 for Strength (and I believe the Goliath gets a +4), and put all of your increases into Strength, and you have a +6 item, for a total of 32 (+11 modifier). And, let's assume you have the Run feat.

Ranks 22 + Str 11 + Jump Spell 30 + increased Base Speed 24 + Run feat 4 = 91 Jump modifier. Assuming you rolled a 10, on a standing high jump, you'd jump 202 feat straight up in the air. It'd take you several rounds to go up, and several to come back down, but you'd be one insane jumper. Oh, and if you wanted to make a standing long jump? 808 feat. Without a running start.

Keeping in mind, of course, that this provides you no benefit more than a potion of fly, except that it doesn't cost you anything.

Sound good?

 

[Perun]

If your DM is open to house-rules, it provides another option. For example, the new Complete Adventurer accessory presents a new base class, the ninja. The ninja has a 4th-level class ability that could be turned into a feat. For example:

LEAP OF THE CLOUDS [General] (too keep in with the monk theme )
Your extensive training enables you to leap over great distances.
Prerequisistes: Jump 10 ranks, Str 13+, Dex 13+.
Benefit: You always make Jump checks as if you were running. Calculate all your Jump checks as if you had at least 20 feet running start.

This way you'd need a 9th-level monk to take it, which is a 5-level difference from when the ninja gets it as a class ability.

 

[monboesen]

So you are playing a melee combat character with a base str and dex mod of +0. To me it would seem that your jumping ability should be the least of you troubles.

And instead of maxing out skills it is much more interesting (and in general more usefull) to be decent at a larger number of skills. If playing a monk (or rogue) I would always put 5 ranks in Balance, Jump and Tumble. You get +6 in synergy bonuses by doing that and for a normal monk (with dex and str) would be at around +10 in those skills (and thats before adding speed bonus to jump).

 

[maddman75]

As I type I'm watching Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and just saw the scene where the sword is stolen. The thief and her pursurer do all kinds of amazing jumps and climbs bordering on flying that are impossible for real world but are fantastic for a fantasy world.

I want my Monk 6 / thief-acrobat 1 to begin to move like that or at least have the potential to in a few levels.

- Feydras

D&D really doesn't do that very well. But there are other games that do.