Why is Min/Maxing viewed as bad?

[librarius_arcana]

Check out "vehical" while you're at it..

Why didn't you understand the use of that term in reference to my statement?

I think it is you that needs to look up the meaning

Other than repeating what you said in your first post ad infinitum, and trotting out some dog-eared cliches like "that's not role-playing, that's roll-playing", .

Is it still a "cliche" if it's true?

and if you don't know the difference between the two you don't seem to be qualified to answer the question,

you don't really have much of a point. For the "cart and horse" analogy to amount to anything more than pretention, you have to actually explain how playing the game the way you think it should be played constitutes the superior method, and other ways are backwards.

Well that statement is composed in it's entirety on assumption,
and judging on total lack of mert, almost seems to be a personal attack,

can you support any of that?, or is that just your personal view?

 

[Goblyn]

I'm just trying to work out whether librarius_arcana has the tongue firmly in cheek or not.
I'm getting a feeling not. (librarius_arcana: some clarification needed dude )
You see this is where these threads tend to fall apart. There's always someone who thinks that their way is the right or correct way and that other ways are inferior, silly or whatever. Just remember people that when it comes down to it, all you can do is voice your opinion. To cross the line where you pretend that your opinion is fact is stepping over the mark.

Surely the greatest thing about this hobby of ours is that so many people can enjoy it in so many ways. How can there be a wrong or inferior way of playing?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

I regret that you are correct in this; throughout the thread I've been attempting to preserve the clarity of these terms as I understand them in order to avoid confusion. Alas.

 

[librarius_arcana]

Yes, and you seem to have trouble respecting ways of thinking that differ from yours. Like most "purists", you are quick to deride and slap a label on others.

No completey wrong, I can see where you're coming from, but you can't see mean, can you?

There's nothing inherently noble or great about making inefficient character choices. If a fighter wants to put his 16 in Charisma and his 10 in STR, then that's his choice, but how does it constitute some kind of superior approach to the game?

You shouldn't judge something you don't understand

Well, you're the one tossing the label around, so go ahead and explain. But you should try actually supporting your point-of-view rather than just stating it as if it were factual.

I know what a "munchkin" is,

but the point was do you,

 

[arwink]

Mix-Maxing is evil. I prefered the good old days, when my PC's who aspired to becoming the world's greatest swordsman had to resort to good Thaco's and kindly asking everyone else to use battle-axes in order to bring my vision to life...

 

[Jupp]

Because it's trying to exploit the system at the cost of character/setting/story etc

the rules should be a supportive vehical to playing a role (hence roleplay),
instead of trying to number crunch numbers for system effect, that have nothing to do with
character/setting/story etc,

Muchkins only care about trying to take advantage system, and not character/setting/story etc


are you looking for more of a roleplaying game?

or a board game?

if board game then being a munchkin doesn't really matter

You are quite agressive in your posts.
But again, you are trying to impose onto others how the game should be played. Which is, in my opinion, wrong. It is up to every group to decide how D&D is to be played. Be it a competitive game style where a group tries to "beat" the module or a collaborative roleplaying experience where the priorities are shifted to the character/story development. Even a healthy mix between the two is possible, which is what I was writing about in my post earlier in this thread. It is totally possible to give great importance to the statistical development of your character by trying to get the best thing possible out of the rules and still have a good roleplaying experience. You are trying to tell us that there is only night and day but there is a grey space between it that is a valid way to play as well.

 

[Aus_Snow]

It's one of those terms that, if it had one accepted standard contextual definition, would probably cause a rather different amount of 'trouble' than it currently does.

To me, I suppose min-maxing in terms of RPGs is the decision made by some players to focus on "character optimisation" (i.e., with a view to 'winning the RPG') during character creation and play, to the extent that the more humanly engaging and enriching aspects of these total experiences are overshadowed or even largely - if not entirely - ignored or undiscovered.

If it (the want to 'win') doesn't reach those dizzying heights however, it's no harm to anything or anyone.

 

[wedgeski]

The big red implosion timer is definitely counting down on this thread!

As usual I would guess it comes down to definitions. If you define the min/max approach to the game as 'a player who exploits loopholes to create as powerful a character as possible, usually to the detriment of his fellows' then it can't be anything except bad. But there are other definitions, as folks on this thread are trying to illustrate.

Personally I don't see min/maxing as bad, myself. Making sub-optimal choices for your PC is all well and good, as long as the rest of the group does it as well, but if I want to create a PC with legs and staying power, someone who might actually reach mid-high level without relying almost completely on the skill of his compatriots, then my choices are going to be as close to optimal as makes no odds.

 

[Goblyn]

No completey wrong, I can see where you're coming from, but you can't see mean, can you?




You shouldn't judge something you don't understand



I know what a "munchkin" is,

but the point was do you,

I believe I have found the answer to my question.

Having the term 'munchkin' appear in the thread makes me realize that min/maxing is reviled because it is lumped in with said term and all understood connotations. How I understand the term is not as most understand it. This is unfortunate because it can be a useful tool in character creation, but should I mention it, these negative associations will affect.

 

[librarius_arcana]

I'm just trying to work out whether librarius_arcana has the tongue firmly in cheek or not.
I'm getting a feeling not. (librarius_arcana: some clarification needed dude )

A bit of both, but must admit, not so much of the funny in light of some peoples thoughtlessness knee jerk reactions,

You see this is where these threads tend to fall apart. There's always someone who thinks that their way is the right or correct way and that other ways are inferior, silly or whatever. Just remember people that when it comes down to it, all you can do is voice your opinion. To cross the line where you pretend that your opinion is fact is stepping over the mark.

Thats why I asked for their version/understanding of what a munchkin is,

theres not alot of point me just telling such people,
but let it dawn on them in the explaining,

Surely the greatest thing about this hobby of ours is that so many people can enjoy it in so many ways. How can there be a wrong or inferior way of playing?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

A roleplaying game should be about roles, the character, am I correct?
or is this my misunderstanding of years and years of roleplaying?

Roll players on the other hand have little to non at all desire to play a "Role"
but rather simply roll the dice for the sake of the system,

where is the "Role" in that form of play?

 

[Krelios]

Because it's trying to exploit the system at the cost of character/setting/story etc

the rules should be a supportive vehical to playing a role (hence roleplay),
instead of trying to number crunch numbers for system effect, that have nothing to do with
character/setting/story etc,

Muchkins only care about trying to take advantage system, and not character/setting/story etc


are you looking for more of a roleplaying game?

or a board game?

if board game then being a munchkin doesn't really matter

Min/Maxing and Munchkinism are not the same thing. You're suggesting the OP posited something that he didn't.