Why is the Vancian system still so popular?

That sounds kind of cool when you write it out. Was it good or bad in actual play?
Very good, until we realized just how royally we'd been screwed. There's nothing quite like knowing that the party warlock has been working for an evil demon lord... without meaning to! And it wasn't even the demon lord she thought she was working for...

You're making your party sound almost comically inept! Why is your defender so incompetent?
Well, two examples spring to mind immediately:
1) What armour do you expect a Paladin to wear? If you guessed 'Hide armour' you'd be right in this case... I eventually pointed out that having a high AC was a key part of being a defender. The trick is to draw the enemy attacks and make them miss, not just take damage all the time.
2) He has a terrible tendency to act more like a beserker than a paladin. Just finished the encounter, half the party down, the paladin charges around the corner into the next encounter...

If I had to summarize the overall issue, it's that we're a roleplay heavy group in a combat heavy game. In too many cases, the characters are held back mechanically by their roleplay decisions. Things like the paladin not wearing platemail, and the rogue never taking a second wind.
 

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What armour do you expect a Paladin to wear? If you guessed 'Hide armour' you'd be right in this case

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He has a terrible tendency to act more like a beserker than a paladin. Just finished the encounter, half the party down, the paladin charges around the corner into the next encounter...

If I had to summarize the overall issue, it's that we're a roleplay heavy group in a combat heavy game. In too many cases, the characters are held back mechanically by their roleplay decisions. Things like the paladin not wearing platemail, and the rogue never taking a second wind.
It sounds like someone needs to help that paladin rebuild as an Avenger! Or something like that.

The roleplay from my group is mostly focused on how the PCs hook into the setting and the various factions/forces in play, rather than on quirks of characterisation (although there are a few of them - eg the paladin of the Raven Queen always sleeps standing up, because there will be time enough to be on his back when he's dead). And while not everything is mechanically optimised, there are no serious attempts to push against the mechanics. 4e just doesn't support that sort of play very well, I don't think.
 

I sort of liked the 4E version of Vancian magic (different spells had different cool downs - once per day, once per encounter, at-will) but I disliked the variety of spells one had to select from - one of the big reasons I abandoned it. Also, maybe I am wrong, but I don't remember counter spell being in 4E. It could be cool to have a Vancian magic system where a caster could spend spell slots on spells with different cool downs where powerful daily spells cost more slots than weaker at-will spells. I suppose for verisimilitude one could argue that encounter spells are simpler and can be relearned in a 30 minute time frame, whereas daily spells need a long drawn out ritual to put to memory because of their complexity.

All that said I have never had real problems with Vancian magic - but most of my players aren't min/maxers and we are more into the story. What is the issue with it? OP at high levels and weak at low levels would be my guess.
 


No, it's not "just because the mechanics say so," it's because some people want martial exploits to be metagame mechanics. You don't have to have magic with names and martial stuff without; take a look at Wheel of Time, where the master swordsmen have evocative names for all their maneuvers (Heron Wading Through the Rushes, Parting the Silk, and such) while the channelers weave elements together to achieve what they want and only a few very powerful effects have specific names.

As long as you treat mechanics as having some actual manifestation in-game, it doesn't matter whether you call something magic "the fireball spell" or "a spell to make a large explosion of flame" or whether you call a maneuver "the Whirlwind Attack maneuver" or "that thing you do where you swing your sword around and hit everyone around you." They can be equally arbitrary or equally non-arbitrary. That doesn't happen, however, if you treat one or the other as purely a metagame construct.



The crusader was better at that, but the warblade does it fairly well too. And in a system where the rogue can flank someone with no facing and hit some undefined "weak spot" for massive damage, that does a pretty good job of mimicking the ebb and flow of combat without getting into annoying fiddly bits.

I disagree that the warblade does it in practice any better than the AEDU fighter. But tastes vary.

Even without any edge cases, the flavor (excellent negotiator) isn't really close to the mechanic (automatic mind control).

This. You're pushing hard at one edge case for AEDU from my perspective. It's not wholly meta and not wholly IC - but a decent compromise.

Funny thing is, that actually argues for the 3e (or 4e Essentials) way of doing things. ;) An AoO-spec fighter in 3e, and presumably a Slayer in 4e, can use everything he has on any attack, whether a normal attack or an AoO, and sometimes even has extra benefits on an AoO. So getting 2 AoOs is essentially the same as having 2 more attacks on your turn (with the exception that they're triggered, of course; "I can definitely kill all 4" and "I can definitely kill 2, then I can kill the others if I'm positioned right" have different tactical implications).

Of course the AEDU fighter can gets specific bonusses on an OAs. Namely a bonus to hit - and a hit that stops the goblin moving. In just about all cases the fighter's answer is going to be "I can definitely kill two, and can kill the others if I'm positioned right". When it comes to preventing people running away, the Weaponmaster Fighter has an awesome rider on his OAs.

Rather than relying solely on front loaded resources like vancian dailies or per encounter abilities, I think the game would really benefit from some form of resource that builds up during an adventuring day. Something that resets to zero or a low number after a rest. This would create a resource trade-off for resting, one that gives the players a reason not to favor the 15minute adventuring day.

I think this is what milestones were meant to be. (Exploited most viciously by the warforged vampire knight with meliorating armour). It wasn't enough.

But what might work if you hand out XPs is a scalar - a 10% boost for every previous encounter that day.

Very good, until we realized just how royally we'd been screwed. There's nothing quite like knowing that the party warlock has been working for an evil demon lord... without meaning to! And it wasn't even the demon lord she thought she was working for...

Ugh. Not that I'm not doing the same to one of my PCs.

Well, two examples spring to mind immediately:
1) What armour do you expect a Paladin to wear? If you guessed 'Hide armour' you'd be right in this case... I eventually pointed out that having a high AC was a key part of being a defender. The trick is to draw the enemy attacks and make them miss, not just take damage all the time.
2) He has a terrible tendency to act more like a beserker than a paladin. Just finished the encounter, half the party down, the paladin charges around the corner into the next encounter...

Sounds like he wants to be playing a Beserker.

If I had to summarize the overall issue, it's that we're a roleplay heavy group in a combat heavy game. In too many cases, the characters are held back mechanically by their roleplay decisions. Things like the paladin not wearing platemail, and the rogue never taking a second wind.

Second wind is almost always a bad choice - it means you aren't actually attacking, and are therefore giving the monsters a free swing. And 4e is very lenient about people picking a concept and building to it rather than building to be optimised.
 

You're not making me regret my lack of familiarity with this particular (sub-)genre!

Mission accomplished!

It's not all awful, but having read a bunch of it as "easy reads" when I couldn't get anything better, it would be way down the list of any recommendations I would make. Plus, the playstyle influences run the other way, too. That is, giving the style of play you seem to like, I doubt you'd care for those works. Why read that stuff, when you could read something like Poul Anderson's "Kingdom of Ys"--an excellent RQ inspiration?

I'm an odd bird in that respect, in that my "natural playstyle" was there all along, but emerged slowly. I used to have a strong simulationist, railroading, fudging streak, which interfered with my natural playstyle until I could work it out. Plus, I read a lot, and can get some cheap enjoyment out of some fairly pedestrian work, when in the right mood. I'd rather read a third-rate fantasy novel than watch a second-rate TV show. So I've got more actual experience with such play and their influences than one would normally expect out of someone who now doesn't care for it much.
 

I think this is what milestones were meant to be. (Exploited most viciously by the warforged vampire knight with meliorating armour). It wasn't enough.

I fully agree, action point/milestones were not enough, they were a very poor mechanic for the purpose of avoiding 15 minute adventuring days. In fact, you actually reset your action point to 1 after a rest, which could cause the players to decide to rest sooner. It was an interesting mechanic, but it was not truly designed to persuade or reward avoidance of the 15minute adventuring day.

:)
 

When it comes to preventing people running away, the Weaponmaster Fighter has an awesome rider on his OAs.
The fighter in my game is, overall, a more effective controller than the wizard - although the wizard has some tricks with conjurations and zones that the fighter can't emulate, and also Twist of Space.

I think this is what milestones were meant to be. (Exploited most viciously by the warforged vampire knight with meliorating armour). It wasn't enough.
I think milestones work OK for a group that is, in any event, inclined to push on rather than rest. I wouldn't say that they incentivise pushing on, but rather that they blunt the edge of it somewhat.
 

I read a lot, and can get some cheap enjoyment out of some fairly pedestrian work, when in the right mood. I'd rather read a third-rate fantasy novel than watch a second-rate TV show.
Whereas I read very little fiction these days - nearly all the reading that I do is (more-or-less directly) for my work.

But I may have been known to watch the odd second-rate TV show!
 

I understand that exploits are not explicitly metagame. In this way I think of them as like hit points - depending on one's take, they are either flexible or incoherent!

But what I'm missing, I think, is why you think they can't be treated as metagame. In what way do they not affect metagame things only? Maybe there are some rogue powers that I should have in mind but am forgetting about (I'm not really up on my 4e rogue knowledge), but for fighters they're basically more attacks, more damage and more knockback/down, and for rangers they're basically more attacks, more damage and more movement.

The damage boosts and knockback/down strike me as bascially dice manipulation - analogous to using an explicitly metagame option to reroll or boost damage dice - and the additional attacks seem to me basically to be manipulations of the action economy, which as I've said seems to be obviously metagame (because of it's stop motion implications if treated otherwise).

There are some exploits that you can easily treat as purely metagame in effect; any +X attack or +X[W] damage or similar purely numerical manipulation effects are easily explained that way. Your continuous action example bear this out well: the difference between getting a lucky crit on one attack and using a +2[W] power or between hitting with both Twin Strike attacks and missing all but two Sweeping Blow attacks isn't all that noticeable, and as someone noted earlier having multiple similar powers can hide this effect. But when you get past pure numbers and get to things like pushing or stunning or moving more than your speed or hitting everything in reach, the disconnect between the fiction ("here's stuff you can do") and the mechanics ("...but only once per day") is irritating.

Making enemies attack themselves (Bloody Path, Rogue 15), becoming invisible or just hiding amazingly (Hide in Plain Sight, Rogue 16), getting free attacks against people who attack your allies (Strike of the Watchful Guard, Fighter 19), immobilizing someone (Dizzying Blow, Fighter 5), and similar are all things that martial characters can do that can't just be treated as metagame things without some serious inconsistencies. The rogue can hide so perfectly that he can remain unseen in broad daylight in the middle of an open field...until he moves, then he can't do that again for a day? The fighter can pick one enemy and take advantage of every opening...but can't do that to anyone else that day?

Anything with that kind of obvious observable effect, with those kinds of obvious tactical advantages, are things that characters would notice and try to take advantage of--if I were a rogue and could turn invisible if I didn't move, I'd use it all the time to sneak in somewhere, wait until a guard left, move to the next room, wait until the guard left, etc.--yet they just can't use their abilities for no obvious, satisfactory (to me, at least) explainable reason. If you can hide that well, why only some of the time? If you can guard someone that well, why only some of the time? If there were some sort of in-game limitation without such an arbitrary usage restriction such as "need to Bluff to HiPS, -10 penalty per use against someone who just saw you do it," or if there were some sort of metagame counter to the metagame restrictions (daily exploits are usable 1/day, spend an action point to re-use), they would be more palatable, but as it stands the contrast between the character being able to go all day on pure grit and adrenaline doing awesome stuff by the fiction and the character being able to pull off awesome tricks only on a per-day basis by the mechanics is jarring.

I don't think I get this either. Why do encounters and dailies as metagame stop named martial manoeuvres? In the fiction, the fighter PC performs "Whirlwind Attack" - but on some occasions, its mechanical impact is limited to one target. (Or, if that seems too much trouble and/or too inane, the fighter player can use Passing Attack, say, as one manifestation of his/her PC's Whirlwind Attack, although if there are 3 or more adjacent enemies it will only ever hit two of them.)

The named vs. unnamed maneuvers point was in response to the earlier assertion by several people that you're not actually doing a specific thing in-game, you're just "fighting" and the exploits are what happens when you do. If your fighter has a Parting the Silk maneuver that he talks about, you'd expect that that maneuver does something particular in the fiction. It's kind of disingenuous to say "Oh, I use Parting the Silk a lot, it's just that I only hit with it very rarely" to justify a daily usage of the maneuver. Yes, it makes sense that harder maneuvers are less likely to succeed, but if you tell a player "You can try X a lot but it isn't likely to work often," he'd probably expect a mounting-penalty system or a random-opening system, not a hard cap that he has to work around to justify things in-game.

I disagree that the warblade does it in practice any better than the AEDU fighter. But tastes vary.

The recharge, and by extension being able to pick the right maneuver for the situation, is the key point. Use a maneuver once, you can do it again. Have a maneuver that works well against highly mobile foes or larger foes or very damaged foes, you can keep using it. "I know how to do X, so whenever a situation comes up where X is useful, I can do X" makes much more sense, and is more useful in play, than "I know how to do X, but it'll only work once."

This. You're pushing hard at one edge case for AEDU from my perspective. It's not wholly meta and not wholly IC - but a decent compromise.

I don't think it's an edge case. The example you quoted, of 3e Diplomacy not making sense in game, is a believability issue many times it's used, not just once in a blue moon. Likewise, the issues with martial dailies doesn't come up every single time my group plays 4e and a martial character uses a daily power, but it comes up enough to be a big sticking point for us.
 

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