Why is there no Gen-Con East, anyhow?

[grodog]

I think a gaming convention should be held in Kansas City -- we're equal distance from practically -everyone-!

[snip]

Then again, I haven't been to any cons, and don't exactly have my finger on the pulse of modern-day gaming. Even still, I think I'll try and get to one before too long.

The Lawrence, Kansas, RPGA club KUGAR (KU Gamers and Roleplayers) created KULCon (KU-Lawrence Con) in the early to mid 1990s; KULCon eventually folded after moving to Topeka and holding a satellite con in Wichita once or twice IIRC. ThunderCon was in KC (run by Thunder Castle Games, once the publishers of the Highlander CCG), but is now defunct; ShaunCon is still going strong @ http://www.rpgkc.org/Con/ and Archon is in the general area as well (they're still around at http://www.archonstl.org/).

None of the regional KC shows, however, ever really took off to become a larger show. I think GenCon was just too close while it was in Wisconsin---only an hour plane ride away, for cheap on Midwest Express. Perhaps now that the big con is a little further away, KC can grow some of its local cons into larger events with 1500+ attendees (similar to DunDraCon in the SF Area, for example).

In all seriousness, I don't think the market for a KC con would be high enough -- the biggest thing going for us is logically setup roads and manageable traffic. Having come from the Washington DC area, I still am amazed when I drive somewhere in less than an hour and a half.

Heh. I lived in Lawrence and worked in KC for four years, and that 45-55 minute daily commute was the bane of my existence. When I moved to San Jose (CA) my commute was cut by more than half

Relatedly, the Lawrence-Kansas City-Columubia, MO corridor spawned several game companies in the 1990s. In rough chronological order:

• Pagan Publishing, publishers of the CoC fanzine The Unspeakable Oath as well as the pre-X-files government conspiracy CoC game Delta Green (among many other things) (originally in Columia, MO, later relocated to Seattle)
• Epitaph Studios, publishers of Periphery and Age of Empire (Lawrence)
• Biohazard Games, publishers of the Blue Planet rpg and the Killer Crosshairs universal supplement (founded by ex-Pagan folks in Columbia)
• Thunder Castle Games, publishers of the Highlander CCG (they also had an RPG under development but it never saw print)
• Event Horizon Productions, publishers of Hong Kong Action Theatre, Swords of the Middle Kingdom, Heaven & Earth, and Age of Empire (bought from Epitaph); Lawrence-based EHP was later sold to Guardians of Order, who republished HKAT! and H&E (Swords of the Middle Kingdom remains in EHP hands)
• Clockworks Games, publishers of Asylum, Spookshow, and Chosen (Lawrence then NYC now back in Lawrence I think)
• Adamant Entertainment, designers of Skull & Bones, d20 Fulvimata, and other stuff (Lawrence then NYC now also back in Lawrence I think)

I am almost certainly forgetting some other KC publishers.... :\

 

[mythusmage]

Until we get one Gencon per time zone, I think that's gonna hafta do.

Won't an ocean liner for GenCon MidAtlantic be expensive?

 

[mythusmage]

WorldCon (one of the biggest SF conventions) travels. Indeed, it's a feather in the cap of the geeks who host it, and geeks compete for the privilige. You think Olympic politics are vicious? You've never seen geeks bent-for-leather on hosting WorldCon.

Friendships have ended and reputations have been ruined by WorldCon politicking.

BTW, a site is usually chosen about 5 years before the event.

 

[mythusmage]

But Seriously...

Talked with Peter at Comic-Con (GenCon LLC has a booth this year) about this. According to him, they're not ready to run an east coast show. Not just a matter of money, but one of people as well. So if GenCon East is ever held it'll be a few years from now.

 

[WizarDru]

Friendships have ended and reputations have been ruined by WorldCon politicking.

BTW, a site is usually chosen about 5 years before the event.

3 years, unless something has changed since the last couple I went to. In 1998, we voted on the location of the 2001 Worldcon and managed to win the "Millenium Philcon". I ran the only D&D third edition game at the con, and we voted for 2004 at that 'con.

But Worldcon's appeal (and occasional rampant snobbery about media SF, anime and gaming) was something of a drag.

 

[Mixmaster]

OK. Here goes [LONG]....

I write this as a person who:

Has friends in the convention business since 1980.
Has a friend in upper management for the NYC & Company (their new name for convention and visitors bureau).
Has contacts with many East Coast Travel agencies.
Had tried to get a major convention in the NYC area since the late 80's and, Saw why Origins left Philadelphia after 1 year even thought they had a contract for 3.

Two major reasons (the others have been addressed):

1 - Unions.

The cost for union help is WAY over and above any cost a vendor can afford. You are not allowed to set up or do ANYTHING, they must do all the work (receiving, setting up, electrical, tear down, transporting and any miscellaneous I might have missed.) These costs are extravagant for the big boys (Wizards, HeroClix, Upper Deck), so how do think the little guy would fare? They couldn't afford it - so they won't come.

This holds true for NYC, Boston and Philly. Washington D.C. and Baltimore (not as bad as the others, so I'm told).

2 - Hotels / Convention Centers

I'll speak for NYC first. If you could get dates at the Jacob Javits Center (and you probably can't - it's booked two-three years in advance), you would have these issues:

a) Hotel occupancy AVERAGES about 80-85%. Meaning you won't have hotels having blocks of rooms available at average prices (2004 average $144/night). So what's left? The "lower class hotels" some of which I wouldn't have my worst enemy there or the "super premium" at $250 - 400/night. People complained about the prices in Milwaukee & Indy; What do you think they'll be if they could only get $250/night for a small room. Not to mention the cost of rooms for the Guests of Honor, RPGA DM's, convention help etc. Also again, the vendors (see point #1).

b) NYC has the Republican National Convention coming soon. Total people: About 20,000 (kinda like GenCon). Cost per room? Over $200/night midweek! Weekends (which a major con would be) would even be more pricey. Granted, these are the pricier hotels, but Madison Square Garden (where the RNC is to be held) is in the same neighborhood as the Javits Center. Furthermore, NYC had TWO YEARS to get a bid together and block out the number of rooms. The way it's done now, there would be 40 to 50 hotels that you would have to call and make reservations (BTW: Passkey is not used here). One could call and get a good price for a room, but if a hotel blocks off rooms (lets say the Auto Show or GenCon Nor'Easter), their room price goes up!

c) Timeframe: If you have it between November 15th - January 5th it gets even worse. Hotels RAISE their prices at that time. Occupancy % rises to the low-mid 90's. Airfare prices ALSO goes up for travel to NYC. Tourists equate Christmas with NY.

d) Lastly, there's talk about expanding Javits in the next few years along with building a football stadium etc. for the NY Jets and hopefully, the 2012 Olympics. If (and I mean IF) it happens, the overall plan will be even more (expensive) hotel rooms in that area and the price gouging by the existing hotels. The inexpensive motels that are in that area? Removed. Average Price goes even higher.

If you want the other cities on the Eastern Seaboard and their issues, reply to this thread. My next post will name a city in the East Coast that could hold GenCon East.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Err, I thought they wanted to build Olympic City in Queens...which after the Olympics would be used for Conventions and Housing...

 

[WizarDru]

The cost for union help is WAY over and above any cost a vendor can afford. You are not allowed to set up or do ANYTHING, they must do all the work (receiving, setting up, electrical, tear down, transporting and any miscellaneous I might have missed.) These costs are extravagant for the big boys (Wizards, HeroClix, Upper Deck), so how do think the little guy would fare? They couldn't afford it - so they won't come.

This is particularly true in Philly, where in addition to expense, we have territorial battles. The Philly convention center is considered a major failure, because it's too expensive, and the city's unions too divisive. This the city where the electricians and the carpetenters got into a fistfight over who's job it was to put up someone's booth. A few arrests later, the booth still wasn't assembled. The Unions are the single biggest reason that Worldcon has no immediate plans to return to Philadelphia. It would be one of the last places I would advocate for a 'con...and I work here and live nearby.

I'm curious what the downsides to Baltimore and Orlando are, as I would assume them to be the best chances for a con. This weekend I'm going to Otakon, and the anticipated attendance is about 20,000...so it's clear they can host one...it's a question of whether it would make economic sense to do so. At the end of the day, it's Peter Adkinson who's fronting the money and assuming the risk, and he should be the one to do what makes sense....something I've seen Peter do a pretty good job of in the past.

This holds true for NYC, Boston and Philly. Washington D.C. and Baltimore (not as bad as the others, so I'm told).

2 - Hotels / Convention Centers

I'll speak for NYC first. If you could get dates at the Jacob Javits Center (and you probably can't - it's booked two-three years in advance), you would have these issues:

a) Hotel occupancy AVERAGES about 80-85%. Meaning you won't have hotels having blocks of rooms available at average prices (2004 average $144/night). So what's left? The "lower class hotels" some of which I wouldn't have my worst enemy there or the "super premium" at $250 - 400/night. People complained about the prices in Milwaukee & Indy; What do you think they'll be if they could only get $250/night for a small room. Not to mention the cost of rooms for the Guests of Honor, RPGA DM's, convention help etc. Also again, the vendors (see point #1).

b) NYC has the Republican National Convention coming soon. Total people: About 20,000 (kinda like GenCon). Cost per room? Over $200/night midweek! Weekends (which a major con would be) would even be more pricey. Granted, these are the pricier hotels, but Madison Square Garden (where the RNC is to be held) is in the same neighborhood as the Javits Center. Furthermore, NYC had TWO YEARS to get a bid together and block out the number of rooms. The way it's done now, there would be 40 to 50 hotels that you would have to call and make reservations (BTW: Passkey is not used here). One could call and get a good price for a room, but if a hotel blocks off rooms (lets say the Auto Show or GenCon Nor'Easter), their room price goes up!

c) Timeframe: If you have it between November 15th - January 5th it gets even worse. Hotels RAISE their prices at that time. Occupancy % rises to the low-mid 90's. Airfare prices ALSO goes up for travel to NYC. Tourists equate Christmas with NY.

d) Lastly, there's talk about expanding Javits in the next few years along with building a football stadium etc. for the NY Jets and hopefully, the 2012 Olympics. If (and I mean IF) it happens, the overall plan will be even more (expensive) hotel rooms in that area and the price gouging by the existing hotels. The inexpensive motels that are in that area? Removed. Average Price goes even higher.

If you want the other cities on the Eastern Seaboard and their issues, reply to this thread. My next post will name a city in the East Coast that could hold GenCon East.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mixmaster]

Err, I thought they wanted to build Olympic City in Queens...which after the Olympics would be used for Conventions and Housing...

The Olympic City will be built in Queens (if there's a Olympics here - we're not the favorites), but will be used for mid and high level housing afterwards - No hotels or commercial use.

The main build is a 2+ Billion dollar outlay for:

Upgrading Jacob Javits (the preliminary discussion is a 40% increase in space).
A 70,000 seat stadium for the Oly opening/track&field/closing ceromonies; The NJ Jets are kicking in 600M.
General Infrastructure (including extending either the 7 line or the Grand Central/Times Square shuttle to Javits), in able for the major hotel chains to buld hotels near Javits.

 

[woodelf]

And as for East-coasters being "self-centered" its not really that we are self-centered, it is more a matter of perspective. Here in New England, and in general along much of the East Coast, things are so close together many are just are not used to the larger scale of the western part of the country. Those who have not experienced it have trouble comprehending it. I had no concept of it whatsover until I drove from New Hampshire to New Mexico one summer.

[From the other perspective two people I knew from Utah came to vacation in New York and New England. One day they were going to drive from Vermont, across New Hampshire, over to Maine. They looked at a map and thought "This will take all day!" not realizing the scale of the map was so much smaller. Two hours later they see "Welcome to Maine." They were shocked at how small the states are.]

The one i find culture-shocking is the differing perspectives on priorities. Tons of people commute well over an hour, even two hours, one-way, in the DC, NYC, and Boston areas (probably Atlanta, too, but i have no info on the matter), and consider this perfectly reasonable. Yet i hear people refer to a 4hr drive as unreasonable for a weekend vacation. Around here, most people consider a 30min commute excessive (Chicagoans perhaps excepted), but think nothing of an 8hr drive for a weekend getaway. In most of the NE (south of Maine/Vermont/New Hampshire, at least), it's hard to drive more than 30mi on a major highway without running into another town, yet there are rest areas even more-frequently placed. Get west of Lake Michigan (and especially west of the Mississippi), and you can easily drive a hundred or two hundred miles between towns on the interstate, yet rest areas are often nearly a hundred miles apart. Seems to me, the farther the towns are apart, the more imperitive to have rest areas. I don't even understand why they have rest areas in MA, given how easy it is to find a town to stop in.