Why isn't WotC acknowledging Grind issue?

[Dannager]

Also, let me clarify that my grind problem has been most prevalent with my group of 7 players. I don't experience it with my group of 4 (3 of whom play in my group of 7).

It sounds like you already know the solution to your problem.

WotC's already addressed this a couple of times, both in official and less official capacities. I don't think there's really more that needs to be done. The solutions to the grind problem, if you have one, are pretty straightforward: don't run with more players than you can handle, make sure your players decide their actions ahead of time, roll attack and damage at the same time, and ensure that your players have all the info they need right in front of them. Power cards help. If none of this works, consider implementing a time limit on player turns.

 

[Ourph]

I have currently stopped my 7 player 4E game at the Paragon Tier because we can barely get through 1 combat encounter in the 5 hour sessions we have weekly. That pace is entirely too slow for me to be able to progress a campaign.

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I believe that failure to address the issue will only result in a slow erosion of their player base.

I imagine that failure to address the issue will result in slow erosion of the portion of the player base that can barely get through 1 combat encounter in a 5 hour session. I'm not sure that portion of the player base would be served very well by an "official" addressing of the issue, since an "official" solution would probably include a systemic change and I'm not sure the grind issue, for those groups, is really a problem with the system.

 

[Piratecat]

I'll point out that they *have* acknowledged it - at least one podcast has discussed the issue, discussing the "more damage fewer hit points" solution, and they revised solos in MM2 to help reduce grind.

We haven't had this be a problem yet, but I definitely see how it can be.

 

[Rechan]

The revamping of Solo/Elite HP and Defenses seems to me like an acknowledgement. WotC has said Solos just had too many HP.

 

[brainstorm]

Anyone who has read the multitude of grind-related threads would know that there's not one solution to the problem because there are multiple drivers to the problem. Increasing damage and reducing hp is not the cure-all.

Look, I am not bashing 4E. I play it and I like it, better than the previous editions. It is because of this that I want WotC to pay attention, because this is a problem for a segment of their customer base. Based on the number of threads that continuously pop up about it, I'd have to say the problem is significant. If I worked for WotC, I'd be addressing it.

By the way, in this section of this forum alone there are no less than 3 active threads on this topic on page 1. You tell me if it's an issue or not.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/273290-combat-length-adventure-pacing.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/272050-combat-length.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/273174-why-d-d-4th-edition-so-grindy.html

Sorry, that's four. I missed one.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/273193-what-constitutes-grind-what-causes.html

 

[wilrich]

I'll point out that they *have* acknowledged it - at least one podcast has discussed the issue, discussing the "more damage fewer hit points" solution, and they revised solos in MM2 to help reduce grind.

We haven't had this be a problem yet, but I definitely see how it can be.

I must have missed that podcast, but would be VERY interested in listening to it. You wouldn't happen to have a link, the name, or remember approx. when it was?

Thank you, much appreciated!

 

[Piratecat]

I have no clue which one, unfortunately; I'm pretty sure it was Mearls talking about it, probably in a Q&A/letterbag podcast, maybe around the end of last year. I'm sorry I don't remember more clearly.

IIRC, he pretty much says "when I want combat to go more quickly, I raise damage and reduce hit points."

 

[Charwoman Gene]

It's very much a playstyle dependent issue, that's likely why it is not seen by everybody.

Your group is innately more susceptible, too. The main element that slows people down is tactical coordination. Each additonal player adds to the amount of coordination needed.

 

[samursus]

To the OP: its seems obvious, from where I stand, you particular issue with grind in a 7-player game is outside of the scope of what easily can be done about grind. There just isn't much you can do with a tactically rich combat system like 4e when you exceed the recommended party size. You ever tried playing Risk with 7 people?? It can be done, but most of the onus will have to rely on your players. IMO RPGs in general work best with 3-5 players.

I had the same problems in BECMI and 3e once my player count went over 5 (and sometimes 5 was too many),

 

[Mistwell]

The answer to your problems is probably that you have too many players.

Seven is just too much, particularly if any of them are the type that take a long time to decide what to do on their turn.

I'd split that group up. You said you have a four person game also. I'd move one of the players from your seven person group over to your four person group. Five and Six is easier to manage than four and seven.