Why Must I Kludge My Combat?

Not exactly. No individual encounter was so bad, but having 3 of them before you learn anything or do anything else interesting was asinine. I like an individual combat that takes an hour, but I want that combat to accomplish something if it takes that long.

Plus I'd rather have one or two good encounters than 5 crappy ones. 4e, for me, is very good at making fun encounters. Encounters that could be likened to fine chocolates. Used properly, they go a long way. Keep on the Shadowfell felt like they took those chocolates, smashed them to tiny bits with a hammer, and then used them as chips in crappy cookies.

If you're going to use fine chocolate in your cookies, up the level of your dough, man.

This is a great theory but the quality vs quantity argument is meaningless in a game where the players determine the nature of most encounters. How can a DM plan out a "meaningful" combat when he/she doesn't know when or where the next combat takes place?

In order for combats to be fewer and more meaningful they would need to be dictated in advance. Part of the fun for me is not knowing how much combat the PC's try and get involved with until they try. Attempting to inject too much meaning into an encounter that might never take place is wasted prep time for me.
 

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I think you'd be best off using a system designed for miniless play than trying to force 4e (or even 3e) into such a mold. Yes, it can be done, as can pounding in a screw with a hammer. Doesn't make it a good idea.

To take one of my favorites, the Cinematic Unisystem has a tactically interesting system without the assumption of minis or a grid. Flanking is handled by a bonus for teamwork - the more people fighting a monster besides you, the more you get to hit. Opportunity attacks are nonexistant. Characters have access to a large number of special moves they can try - simple attacks for a little damage, harder moves for more damage, moves to disable an opponent, and hard to pull off instant kills.

I've had fights with 6 PCs and a dozen monsters without a hitch, and no minis to speak of.
 


True, but a DM isn't just a rules adjudicator and reader of boxed text--a great DM is a great storyteller as well, and understands the basics: character, plot and pacing.

In other words, roll the BBEG's save behind the screen, and instead of announcing to everyone the number and declare the fight over, tell the group that although the casting of the spell felt right, something has gone wrong--the villain isn't dead/unconscious/incapacitated as expected, just severely injured/weakened/slowed...and angry! Fight on!
This is an even bigger rules kludge than anything complained about above.

Doing that occasionally and when narratively interesting is fine. But if you do it too often, why bother having a set of rules to adjudicate the combat? If players don't know what their tools will do when used (at least the vast majority of the time), I think the shared narrative breaks down pretty quickly.

My experience suggests that your expectations of the limitations of gridless combat are overstated. YM probably V, though.


RC
My experience and everything science knows about memory would suggest that a human DM's ability to adequately track position and movement of 6+ figures in a tactical space with the number of variables in D&D without visual aids is actually very, very poor.

As long as the DM is far and away better at it than the group and has the trust of the group, this will never present as a problem. But if any one of the players is as good at it as the DM or better, there are bound to be many, many mismatches of understanding the tactical situation.

You can add as much tactical depth as you want to a gridless environment, but the limits of the human brain mean that you will, of necessity, lose precision. That's not a bad thing, per se. It just depends on the preferences of the group and the experience and capacities of the DM.

If you want to include meaningful positioning tactics, grid is simply going to be more straightforward for the inexperienced DM or player, and more accurate even for the veteran. That accuracy will be more important to some people and groups than others. Some players might not care. The DM will describe the situation in a way that doesn't match their image, but even if they get hosed a bit, they will know that errors occur in their favor, too. That's just part of the limits of relying on memory. Other players might care a lot.

This is a great theory but the quality vs quantity argument is meaningless in a game where the players determine the nature of most encounters. How can a DM plan out a "meaningful" combat when he/she doesn't know when or where the next combat takes place?

In order for combats to be fewer and more meaningful they would need to be dictated in advance. Part of the fun for me is not knowing how much combat the PC's try and get involved with until they try. Attempting to inject too much meaning into an encounter that might never take place is wasted prep time for me.
I was speaking specifically of the published adventure. In that case, the meaningfulness of the encounters, and the number of them between narrative milestones was more or less dictated for the DM unless he/she wanted to rebuild it.

This gets at what I was saying earlier. The system encourages tactically interesting combats that take a long time. For me, building a module to fit the 4e system would involve a small number of individual encounters that each have a narrative heft commensurate with their gameplay heft. However, I felt that the modules I played were not like that. Instead, they threw many encounters at the players, many of them mundane or irrelevant.
 

I was speaking specifically of the published adventure. In that case, the meaningfulness of the encounters, and the number of them between narrative milestones was more or less dictated for the DM unless he/she wanted to rebuild it.

This gets at what I was saying earlier. The system encourages tactically interesting combats that take a long time. For me, building a module to fit the 4e system would involve a small number of individual encounters that each have a narrative heft commensurate with their gameplay heft. However, I felt that the modules I played were not like that. Instead, they threw many encounters at the players, many of them mundane or irrelevant.

Yeah, with the monster builder its so easy to produce better adventures yourself anyhow.
 

My experience and everything science knows about memory would suggest that a human DM's ability to adequately track position and movement of 6+ figures in a tactical space with the number of variables in D&D without visual aids is actually very, very poor.


Again, you hinge on "with the number of variables in D&D" or, perhaps more specifically, "with many location-dependent variables".

I would agree that there are times when it is useful to break out a grid; I would argue that the times when this is useful occur far less often than when it is not....assuming the use of a ruleset that is not intended to promote the purchase of minis.

And that can easily include multiple enemy combatants versus PCs, flanking, and opportunity attacks.



RC
 

To take one of my favorites, the Cinematic Unisystem has a tactically interesting system without the assumption of minis or a grid. Flanking is handled by a bonus for teamwork - the more people fighting a monster besides you, the more you get to hit. Opportunity attacks are nonexistant. Characters have access to a large number of special moves they can try - simple attacks for a little damage, harder moves for more damage, moves to disable an opponent, and hard to pull off instant kills.

I've had fights with 6 PCs and a dozen monsters without a hitch, and no minis to speak of.

Silly question, but exactly how do you determine that the person is beside you IF you have about a dozen "people" involved WITHOUT a grid.

To me anyway, this is no different than FLANKING in that you actually NEED to know the precise location of people involved otherwise you're just using DM FIAT to say, "ok, you two are beside each other and get a bonus".

That said...I would be surprised if the Cinematic system would be faster (an earlier concern) than either 3e or 4e since a player would be looking at 4 plus options at their turn which means they would need to actually think about what was the best option.
 

Silly question, but exactly how do you determine that the person is beside you IF you have about a dozen "people" involved WITHOUT a grid.

He said "besides," not "beside." In other words, if there are 3 people fighting the monster in addition to you, you get a bigger bonus than if there are only 2. Doesn't matter where they're located, although presumably they have to be in melee.

That's my guess, anyway.

(Also, what's with the randomly capitalized words? Have you been drinking Brawndo?)
 
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the quality vs quantity argument is meaningless in a game where the players determine the nature of most encounters. How can a DM plan out a "meaningful" combat when he/she doesn't know when or where the next combat takes place?

In order for combats to be fewer and more meaningful they would need to be dictated in advance.
In my view, this isn't an issue about meaningfulness. It's an issue about preparation.

There are plenty of RPGs that rely on (i) player-driven conflict and (ii) only playing out conflicts that are meaningful to the players. There is no reason, in principle, why 4e can't be played in this way also. The issue (as far as I see it) is that 4e also depends upon certain encounter mixes and terrain layout to make combat interesting, and this encourages a lot of detailed pre-planning by the GM.

The solution that I use is to have a good sense of what my players are interested in, and to draw up maps and rosters for encounters that fit with those interests. Occasionally I get it wrong, in which case some prep goes unused. Oh well - can't win 'em all!
 


Disregarding several pages of this thread, I will try to respond directly to the original posters questions.

First, I think that the majority of players end up liking most, but not all of any given ruleset, and they will always feel the need to tweak it.

As far as 4th edition, I would say that the perception of grind is highly dependent on what the DM uses for monsters in any given encounter, and how the PC's are built. Different groups, different combats.

However, I think that there is one recurring reason people run into grindy combats. Specifically, any fight that results in combat being a foregone conclusion long before the last opponent is dropped.

I am convinced that Dm's (and WoTC printed adventures) using monsters several levels higher then the players. (Ball park it at party level + 4 or higher), especially Soldier types, and Elites / Solo monsters. The higher hp, and greater AC will cause encounter and daily's to miss, and that will make a big difference in how interesting the combat is.

Player HP and access to healing is greater then it used to be as well. So while a high damage output could drop someone in an earlier edition, a leader can stand up the dropped PC with a minor action. It is much more difficult to kill or threaten a PC with death then it used to be.

To my mind, saying that 4th Edition is flawed in its combat system is like saying your Smart Car is flawed because you cannot go off roading in it. Cutting HP wont make nearly as much a difference as keeping monster levels closer to the PC's.

Getting back to your question, I would say that you feel the need to customize or kludge a system because you are not getting the desired end result from the system based on how you wish to be able to use it. But that problem is not unique to any game system or game element.

END COMMUNICATION
 

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