Why Not Magic?

[Committed Hero]

Because Han Solo is cooler than Luke Skywalker.

2 reasons: Co & Nan.

 

[Greg K]

In universe it is entirely possible that everyone would learn some magic, assuming the setting works like that. But there is a lot of variables there. Does magic take significant effort to learn? That means there is an opportunity cost, time where you are not learning something else. Depending on what magic can and cannot accomplish, that could be a reason. Incidentally, that is one reason I have a bit of a dislike for Gishes and stuff like Tenser's Transformation, because if magic can replicate fighting skill, then yes, it makes little sense to train as a non-magical warrior. Same with other skills(Why be a sneaky rogue if you could turn invisible).

Another in universe explanation is that having non-magical options could be useful in the case of certain situations. Putting all your eggs in one basket means could leave you vulnerable to an antimagic field or dispel magic effect. Having some non-magical specialists could be useful in such a situation.

Ultimately though, I would agree that looking at it from an in universe point of view, not learning any magic in a world where it is trivial to do is like not learning how to use a computer in our world. You might be able to do so, but it's not really practical.

Adding to the above, in some settings, not everyone in the world is capable of learning magic. Magic casting in those settings requires an innate spark or a magical origin/lineage. In others, learning spells requires one being either gifted or a genius in intelligence to even learn spells. This is why, in some settings, spellcasters search far and wide for an apprentice to whom they can pass on their magic or they unexpectedly encounter a child whom has the gift to learn magic and make an offer to take the child on as an apprentice

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah absolutely. In my game, simple magic is like…learning how to drive. Or ride a bike. Doing big stuff takes a lot more work, and complex magic often requires competence in multiple magical disciplines and one or more mundane disciplines, not to mention ritual circles, focusing tools, and deep concentration.

If magic is relatively simple, in-universe, than not having magical abilities would be like making a modern-day character who doesn't know how to drive. It would be a mark of youth, or shelteredness, or possibly some kind of disability.

If magic is that common within the universe, than a lot of its utility probably doesn't need to spelled out mechanically. Using the equivalent of guidance or mending for a craft check, or expeditious retreat for running a race, could simply be narrated as part and parcel of mundane skill checks.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If magic is relatively simple, in-universe, than not having magical abilities would be like making a modern-day character who doesn't know how to drive. It would be a mark of youth, or shelteredness, or possibly some kind of disability.

If magic is that common within the universe, than a lot of its utility probably doesn't need to spelled out mechanically. Using the equivalent of guidance or mending for a craft check, or expeditious retreat for running a race, could simply be narrated as part and parcel of mundane skill checks.

Well, it isn't that common, even amongst cultures where everyone knows that magic is real, simply because a lot of times mundane skill does it either better or with less energy cost, or the limits of magic are relevant, such as the principle (which will get a "some person's law" name at some point) that the further removed from the practitioner an effect is, the harder it is to create and maintain, or even activate, in the case of permanent enchantments.

A good example is weapon enchantments. The reason that melee weapons experience a rennaisance of serious use in the future of Quest for Chevar (my game) is that it's easier (less power intensive and requiring less skill and focus) to enchant a thing you are holding and will continue to hold while it does The Thing, than it is to enchant something like a bullet, which will be separate from you with a contraption of metal and other materials between you and it, and then be fired by a mechanism, and be at some distance from you when it does it's dark work upon the physical world.

You can enchant the gun itself, but that limits what sorts of enchantments you can give it. Even arrows are a bit easier, sitting in basically the same place as thrown weapons magically speaking, because you (depending on technique) are touching the arrow all the way until it leaves the bow, you can see it, you can whisper your enchantment into it's fletching in the moment before release.

So, imagine trying to create a magical equivalent of a national radio system. You can use magic to make radio signal more reliable and clear, because people are in the radio station operating the machine, but sending signal over a great distance via magic is really hard. Like, the realm of specialist with specialized focus items, and even then it won't be as broadly useful as technological radio.

But yeah, part of the idea of the setting is that magic and mundane skill/tech make eachother better.

So you might have magic involved in sports, or you might see cultural pressure against it, as well as pressure against using physical strength in a magical contest, while in other areas you'd see both broad and specialised mixing of the two.

Honestly, a fun variant of the game might involve coming up with some skills that are inherently both magical and physical/mundane. OTOH, I can see that turning into self indulgent esoteric faff pretty easily. The game exists for people to play, after all, not for it's own sake.

 

[schneeland]

The question is: if magic is accessible to anyone in theory, does the same hold true in practice? If magical training requires a lot of costly formal education, it might only be feasible for people from nobility of those within clerical confines to really learn it (some hedge wizards might still exist).
Or maybe, even though everybody can learn it, there's attached risks (demonic possession, backlash from reality etc.), so non-trivial magic requires special permit.

On the other hand: if you want to make a game, where everybody is a magic-user, that's perfectly fine too, IMO. Examples would be Ars Magica (which admittedly has mundane companion characters) or Mage.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

OTOH, magic is much better at some things than mundane skill or tech, I want to make that clear, not that this thread is primarily about my own game system. But transmutation doesn't require an extremely expensive particle accelerator if you're using magic to it.

It does still require a solid understanding of physics and chemistry, and is a thing where in the world lore, reliable transmutation of unalike elements into eachother is an extremely young discipline, having been nearly impossible even amongst cultures like those of the Djinn and Gnomes who have natural gifts for alchemy, until a modern understanding of physics was acquired.

But it's also worth noting that making lightning with your mind is rad as hell, regardless of whether an engineer could do it just as well with a bunch of equipment and power from the grid. You did it with your mind. Then you start looking at the ability to connect a mind to electronics in a way that the mind cannot be hijacked because it is fully in control, or to constantly charge a device from background energy gathered from the movements and processes of the user and everything around them, and to create electrical arcs that can ignore paths of least resistence to arc to a specific target, etc.

anyway, that's enough rambling about how magic works in my game.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The question is: if magic is accessible to anyone in theory, does the same hold true in practice? If magical training requires a lot of costly formal education, it might only be feasible for people from nobility of those within clerical confines to really learn it (some hedge wizards might still exist).
Or maybe, even though everybody can learn it, there's attached risks (demonic possession, backlash from reality etc.), so non-trivial magic requires special permit.

In general, I had hoped for the thread to be about worlds in which we can simply assume that magic is learnable by pretty much anyone. I didn't do a great job of setting that up in the OP, though.

On the other hand: if you want to make a game, where everybody is a magic-user, that's perfectly fine too, IMO. Examples would be Ars Magica (which admittedly has mundane companion characters) or Mage.

See, but the goal isn't to make a game where everyone is a magic user. For many characters magic will be secondary to other skills. But when I look at societies like the nocturnal svart alfar of the Great Dragon Desert in The Otherworld, where magical traditions stretch back tens of thousands of years, it's hard to imagine the knights not having some magic.

Like, okay, imagine that magic is hard to learn, but doesn't require a special spark or anything. It's just a skill, with a relatively steep learning curve. Let's say only about 1 in 1000 people have any real hope of mastering even the basics, just to make it hard. 1 in 1000 of those people have the means to go noticeably beyond the basics.

How can we possibly justify, without any "magic corrupts or makes you a target for eldritch horrors or has terrible side effects or is a religious taboo" stuff, the "professional" soldiers of a culture, those who are trained from a fairly young age in a respected martial tradition, not having some amount of magic built into their martial tradition? Even if it's something on the order of a dnd world having every knight have a couple low level spells and a cantrip that keeps their kit in good condition, why would they ever not have some basic magics as part of their training?

Like, in Eberron, why don't knights and other specialised warriors as well as veteran soldiers have war-oriented rituals on the order of a magewright that are just a normal part of training for war? Unseen servant to help bivouac and upkeep kit. Ritual version of mage hand that lasts for an hour and just helps them reload the crossbow faster. Spare The Dying as just a part of training to be a field medic. Etc.

 

[Bluenose]

Because if everything is magic then nothing is

moreover there is no purpose to doing anything else - if everyone can use a magic missile that never misses then why bother with archery, or even inventing the bow? Why bother with rope if I can spiderclimb or fly? Why bother to be a blacksmith instead or fabricate? why bother to go out and work when I can just cast goodberry or heroes feast?

a character wants to achieve things by their own ability, superior strength or agility or endurance, not have the convinience of a spell doing it for them

thats why I hate spells that replace skills - instead they should gove a skill bonus but still require the character to use their natural ability…

If hitting with a bow is significanntly more effective than hitting with a magic missile, then you actually have a choice - use the reliable low damage spell or use the unreliable but higher damage arrow.

Anyway, the idea of all characters using magic is one that Runequest, at least in Glorantha, has embraced. And there's a number of reasons why it doesn't replace mundane abilities in RQ. One is simply that magic isn't too powerful - your priest of the god of death and swords might be able to cast a spell that kills an enemy instantly (if they overcome their defences) but once it's gone then you won't be using it again until the next holy day for that religion, which could easily be weeks away. A second reason is that magicians aren't so versatile - a Wizard from the Order of the Spreading Sails has magic from that Order's grimoire, and it's a specialist group of ship-enhancers and isn't going to be casting spells that don't relate to that unless they obtain and learn to use effectively another gGrimoire. And a third is that you can learn abilities that are magical without being spells, and they're often pretty damn good (although limited in some way).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, my observation in the game system/setting where it was most true (Runequest) was that people didn't insist on avoiding magic. Even in versions where it wasn't pretty much the only route to higher levels of power, nobody was bent out of shape avoiding having Healing and Bladesharp.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ultimately though, I would agree that looking at it from an in universe point of view, not learning any magic in a world where it is trivial to do is like not learning how to use a computer in our world. You might be able to do so, but it's not really practical.

Just want to pull this quote out from the larger post. Not only this, but in world where it is possible to do so simply via practice and diligence, institutions like martial traditions, guilds, etc, would force that practice and diligence in the learning of the magical principles and skills that are just as much a part of their tradition as the mundane skills and tools. An apprentice or recruit would be drilled, made to practice, given excercises designed to promote the kind of physical and mental mindset that facilitates the skill, just like soldiers are made to sleep and eat together and are punished together even for individual failings, etc, in order to facilitate a "we succeed or fail together" mindset, and are made to perform physical tasks that don't necessarily directly relate to making war in order to condition their bodies to rigorous effort and activity.

It doesn't even require ubiquitous or easy magic. Just magic that can be acquired simply by practice and effort.