Why not monks?

[Friend of the Dork]

So, I'm planning on playing this guy in the next campaign we play. I'm playing a 10th level paladin atm, so not a stranger to the melee...



Feilong, level 10 monk martial artist

Str 20 (22)
Dex 14 (16)
Con 12 (14)
Int 10
Wis 14 (18)
Cha 8

1 Deflect Arrows, Crane Style, Power Attack
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Vicious Stomp
5 Crane Wing
6 Improved Trip
7 Crane Riposte
9 Exotic Weapon Proficiency : whip
10 Medusa's Wrath

belt of physical perfection +2
headband of wisdom +4
monks robe
amulet of natural armour +3
ring of protection +2
bracers of armour +4

armour class...
10
3 monk
3 dex
4 wis
4 armour
3 natural armour
2 deflection


AC 29, 32 with crane style. Touch AC 22/25.
Damage will typically be 2d6 + 6 + 6 (power attack).
Saves will be +8/+10/+9 with improved evasion
Attacks will typically be +13/+13/+8/+8
Another two +13/+13 attacks against a stunned or staggered target only
4 AoOs, which you will probably get the majority of every round, AoO will be at +12 BAB, or +15 CMB
10 stunning fists, DC 20


I'm pretty sure he'd be competent enough to fit in with our current party's melee types.

I'm sure he would be useful, but the 5th level Fighter in my game would be able to stand toe-to-toe against him for a number of rounds. He would still lose out simply because of the number of attacks. By my calculations the Monk has about 30% chance to hit him (AC 32) per round, assuming he doesn't have any way to stun him other than stunning fist.

Of course, the fighter has little chance to hit the Monk as well, and deals even less damage, but we are talking about a fairly well optimalized monk vs a fighter half his level.. who only has a +1 longsword, breastplate, shield, amulet and ring of protection.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

So, I'm planning on playing this guy in the next campaign we play. I'm playing a 10th level paladin atm, so not a stranger to the melee...



Feilong, level 10 monk martial artist

Str 20 (22)
Dex 14 (16)
Con 12 (14)
Int 10
Wis 14 (18)
Cha 8

1 Deflect Arrows, Crane Style, Power Attack
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Vicious Stomp
5 Crane Wing
6 Improved Trip
7 Crane Riposte
9 Exotic Weapon Proficiency : whip
10 Medusa's Wrath

belt of physical perfection +2
headband of wisdom +4
monks robe
amulet of natural armour +3
ring of protection +2
bracers of armour +4

armour class...
10
3 monk
3 dex
4 wis
4 armour
3 natural armour
2 deflection


AC 29, 32 with crane style. Touch AC 22/25.
Damage will typically be 2d6 + 6 + 6 (power attack).
Saves will be +8/+10/+9 with improved evasion
Attacks will typically be +13/+13/+8/+8
Another two +13/+13 attacks against a stunned or staggered target only
4 AoOs, which you will probably get the majority of every round, AoO will be at +12 BAB, or +15 CMB
10 stunning fists, DC 20


I'm pretty sure he'd be competent enough to fit in with our current party's melee types.

I'm sure he would be useful, but the 5th level Fighter in my game would be able to stand toe-to-toe against him for a number of rounds. He would still lose out simply because of the number of attacks. By my calculations the Monk has about 30% chance to hit him (AC 32) per round, assuming he doesn't have any way to stun him other than stunning fist.

Of course, the fighter has little chance to hit the Monk as well, and deals even less damage, but we are talking about a fairly well optimalized monk vs a fighter half his level.. who only has a +1 longsword, breastplate, shield, amulet and ring of protection.

 

[EUBanana]

I'm sure he would be useful, but the 5th level Fighter in my game would be able to stand toe-to-toe against him for a number of rounds. He would still lose out simply because of the number of attacks. By my calculations the Monk has about 30% chance to hit him (AC 32) per round, assuming he doesn't have any way to stun him other than stunning fist.

Of course, the fighter has little chance to hit the Monk as well, and deals even less damage, but we are talking about a fairly well optimalized monk vs a fighter half his level.. who only has a +1 longsword, breastplate, shield, amulet and ring of protection.

AC 32 strikes me as very specialised. Lemme guess - dervish dance, dexterity out the wazoo, and combat expertise on top. So lets be fair, we're talking about an extremely optimised fighter, and one optimised to be defensive. Unless El Monk is fighting dragons regularly then he's not really going to be coming up against this.

And the fighter in turn is literally unable to hit the monk at all due to crane wing, and would last 3 rounds anyway despite pumping dex - grapple, pin, ziptie.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

AC 32 strikes me as very specialised. Lemme guess - dervish dance, dexterity out the wazoo, and combat expertise on top. So lets be fair, we're talking about an extremely optimised fighter, and one optimised to be defensive. Unless El Monk is fighting dragons regularly then he's not really going to be coming up against this.

And the fighter in turn is literally unable to hit the monk at all due to crane wing, and would last 3 rounds anyway despite pumping dex - grapple, pin, ziptie.

16 dex, sword and board, using fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise, yes. Specialized for defense indeed, but I wouldn't say extremely optimized. Of course the Monk will win eventually, but the point is that high AC opponent's will make the Monk's life hard. You mentioned dragons, and those are on a CR level that the Monk is supposed to be able to fight along with his party. A CR 10 Bebilith would also be a tough nut to crack.

If the Monk generally fights creatures of CR <= his level, then yes he will do fine. At least, he won't do much worse than the Rogue =

 

[EUBanana]

16 dex, sword and board, using fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise, yes. Specialized for defense indeed, but I wouldn't say extremely optimized. Of course the Monk will win eventually, but the point is that high AC opponent's will make the Monk's life hard. You mentioned dragons, and those are on a CR level that the Monk is supposed to be able to fight along with his party. A CR 10 Bebilith would also be a tough nut to crack.

If the Monk generally fights creatures of CR <= his level, then yes he will do fine. At least, he won't do much worse than the Rogue =

Well, you got a guy pretty solidly specced for armour class, wiuth more magic items than an NPC would likely have, clamming up completely there, to the point of essentially taking him out of the fight. All the fighter is doing is occupying a space (which the monk can probably tumble past anyway, not like he has to worry about AoOs). So this isn't really proving anything, beyond that if you choose to clam up and pick a bunch of defensive feats you can defend above your level.

To an extent anyway, el monko cheapo only needs a 13+ to hit him by my reckoning, which seems pretty good to me given the fighter basically isn't fighting back. And if the fighter is stunned, its over.

I'm not sure this comparison is really relevant at all, in other words. Certainly this guy is not comparable to the sort of beasties the monk will fight. A bebilith is AC 22, there won't be a lot of missing going on there.

I personally think the monks weakness, in that build at least, is that he's very specialised to fight other weapon wielding humanoids. Something like a bebilith is far outside his comfort zone - something untrippable, and which crane wing wont' work on. Thats 4 of the monks feats neutered. That is not unique to this monk either. You'd be similarly screwed if you were playing a trip monkey fighter, or a cavalier (15' reach = charge is gonna be hard). But I dunno. He's gonna have AC 37 with some clamming up, the bebilith would be looking for 18+ to hit the monk, while the monk would be looking for a 9, before any buffs at all come in, which at that level is a bit artificial. If he had a magic item to get him past the DR - brass knuckles if the DM is a kindly man - then the bebilith is gonna get the can of whup-ass too IMHO. And if you want to keep the evil brass knuckles rule than a +1 holy siangham would do the trick. We got a level 10 cavalier in our party, he'd have AC in the low 30s against a bebilith, and the paladin probably has AC 39 or so - compared to the rest ofthe gang the monk seems very comparable to me.

 

[EUBanana]

Here's another level 10 monk which kicks a lot of azz.

Same attributes for ease. This one ideally wants higher wisdom but lower dexterity however so you could juggle for full twinkage.

1 Snake Style, power attack, combat reflexes
2 Improved grapple
3 Skill focus sense motive
5 Weapon focus fists
6 Improved disarm
7 Snake Sidewind
9 Snake Fang
10 Medusa Strike

So his armour class is the odd thing, his AC is equal to his Sense Motive roll, made every time someone goes for him. By my reckoning this means an AC at level 10, assuming wisdom 20 but no other magic items or effects, that is I believe 10 + 3 + 5 + 6 + 2 = +26, so an average od 36-37 ish. Get Alertness as well and its up to 40. +5 to a skill roll is easy to get with spells or magic items, 45.

Still think monks are crap?

Anybody who makes an attack on him and misses gets an AoO. I think it's a slightly more offensive monk than the crane style one, I'm not sure which I prefer. Probably the crane monk, but still, this guy isn't bad either. He loses out on magic items and spells that boost AC, but on the other hand that just means those slots are free for other stuff, and spells and items that give bonuses to skill rolls suddenly become important.

I think martial artist suits the crane monk best but not the case for this one, so all the monk archetypes are open to him. Qigong monk means toasty ki abilities on top.

Anyway. Two monks, and I think they are both solid, broadly comparable to any other melee class. Though each melee class his its own flavour and its distinctive merits and flaws.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Note that using Snake Style to substitute Sense Motive for AC is an immediate action and is only against 1 attack. So you only get it against 1 attack per round

 

[EUBanana]

Note that using Snake Style to substitute Sense Motive for AC is an immediate action and is only against 1 attack. So you only get it against 1 attack per round

Well, depending on what he does with his actions. Could be 2. But yes.

That hardly makes him bad, though. He'd eat a bebilith for breakfast I think. Against an iron golem, having 1 (or 2, if the monk refrains from a flurry) of the golems attacks miss is probably better than most other melee classes would ever manage. Monks certainly have all the tools to be skirmishers, and this guy would have ki pool unlike the crane monk with all that that entails. Abundant step, AC bonuses when needed, and all the rest.

The crane style monk also works best against single targets, and single targets who use weapons ideally at that. However, given I see monks more as skirmishers than standing next to the plated fighter at the front, I don't see a problem with this. If they could out fighter the fighters there'd be an issue. But these guys are useful, without a doubt I think. The contention is that the class is worthless - I'm not seeing it.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Well, depending on what he does with his actions. Could be 2. But yes.

If you make an immediate action when it's not your turn you can't make an immediate or swift action until after your next turn.
So you can get 2 in one round (on your turn, before your next turn) but only every second round and it's not common you need to use defense on your turn.

Also it does mean you aren't using other swift or immediate actions. I'm not really up with what monk powers are swift actions to activate.

That hardly makes him bad, though. He'd eat a bebilith for breakfast I think.

Dunno, if it's got the same equipment as the monk you give below I make it +14/+14/+9/+9 attacking with flurry doing 2d6 + 6
or +12/+12/+7/+7 doing 2d6+10 with power attack on

Now a Bebilith has DR 10/Good which means that an average hit will do 3 damage to it or 7 with power attack

you need 8/13 or better to hit doing 3 damage on a hit
average damage 65% * 3 * 2 + 40% * 3 * 2 = an average of around 6.3 damage a round to the bebilith

or 10/15 doing 7 damage on a hit with Power Attack
55 % * 7 *2 + 30% * 7 *2
13.3 hp a round


It's attacking at +19 on each attack and your standard AC is 28 so even giving you an automatic miss on the sense motive for 1 attack a round gives him a 9 or better to hit you on 2 attacks a round doing 2D6 + 9 or 2D4 + 9

so a claw hit averages 14 damage to you and has a 60% chance of hitting
so that's an average of around 16-17 hp damage to you per round

(or power attack for +15 putting the damage up to +17)

average 22 on a claw hit, 40% chance to hit averaging 17.6 damage per round

and it has 150 hp compared to 83 for you (assuming average hp)

so you will last an average of 5 rounds of full attacks, it will last an average of 12 rounds of your full attacks.

Your attacks of opportunity on a miss aren't going to make up for that.

I've got a level 11 fighter who has +20/+15/+10 with a +2 holy falchion doing 2d4 + 24 + 2D6 holy damage (both figures while power attacking) and a 31 AC. Crits on a 15+
That's the sort of thing a level 10 or 11 character can do.

Against an iron golem, having 1 (or 2, if the monk refrains from a flurry) of the golems attacks miss is probably better than most other melee classes would ever manage.

An iron golem has +28 to hit, you don't have an automatic dodge on that with the feats you've chosen (about a 50/50) if you trade something for alertness and get the +5 from a magic item then you've got +34

So you're not assured of a miss. The second attack is pretty much assured of a hit and you aren't going to be standing up against it for long.

And it's got 15 damage resistance you aren't getting past (admittedly with the Monk's Robe you would be at level 11)

so yeah you can build a monk who's fairly tough to hit but is lacking on attack.

Monks certainly have all the tools to be skirmishers, and this guy would have ki pool unlike the crane monk with all that that entails. Abundant step, AC bonuses when needed, and all the rest.

Yeah, but they aren't usable if you're using the Sense Motive for AC Swap.

The crane style monk also works best against single targets, and single targets who use weapons ideally at that. However, given I see monks more as skirmishers than standing next to the plated fighter at the front, I don't see a problem with this. If they could out fighter the fighters there'd be an issue. But these guys are useful, without a doubt I think. The contention is that the class is worthless - I'm not seeing it.

What do you see the job of a skirmisher being?
Because in general full attacking rules in D20 based games and flurry is such a large part of Monk that they need it.

 

[EUBanana]

So you can get 2 in one round (on your turn, before your next turn) but only every second round and it's not common you need to use defense on your turn.

Also it does mean you aren't using other swift or immediate actions. I'm not really up with what monk powers are swift actions to activate.

I would assume that you can use a move action as another swift action if you wanted, but that would imply just an attack action. So if you wanted to 'clam up' you would do that.

As for other ki actions, with a monk like this, I'd recommend a qigong monk, so the usual ki pool powers (which are swift actions) would be replaced by spell like abilities (which are standard actions). Stuff like gaseous form and shadow step would be good to escape being mobbed by hordes of little guys, which are this characters weakness. Barkskin would boost up his natural AC a bit and leave the amulet slot open.


re. the bebilith, I am assuming that this monk would have something to ignore the DR. I dont think thats much of an assumption. In our level 10 party all the melee have good aligned weapons, or people can be arranged to have good aligned weapons, so in actual play the DR isn't gonna be a biggy. Monks do damage with a bunch of attacks, so DR or not DR obviously changes things massively.

2d6 + 12 with a power attack incidentally, 1/4/8, monk flurry BAB is treated as base BAB so power attack is applied in full for a flurry.

Re. the bebilith, I didnt do a full run down on the snake monk - I just cast that out pretty willy nilly. However, for the crane monk with a holy weapon, it looks like this.

Assumptions
monk fails exploit weakness 1 in 4 rounds, as he needs 6+
monk has +1 holy weapon
monk has no other buffs of any kind

Bebilith needs an 18 when exploit weakness works, 13 otherwise
Does an average of 15 damage a hit say
3 attacks, 15% chance of each hitting = 6.75 DPR on a successful exploit
= 18 DPR on a failed exploit weakness
9.5 DPR on average

Monk

2 attacks, 40% chance of each hitting, 3d6 + 12 = 25.2
2 attacks, = 14.7

= 40 DPR

Bebilith dies in 4 rounds, monk dies in about 6-7.


If the snakey monk turtles, he could hold the bebilith off pretty well, assuming I'm correct in my assumptions re. swift actions. Depends on what you want to do.

An iron golem has +28 to hit, you don't have an automatic dodge on that with the feats you've chosen (about a 50/50) if you trade something for alertness and get the +5 from a magic item then you've got +34

The iron golem was a bit flippant. The level 10 paladin in our party has AC 32 ish normally. The paladin is just going to eaten by an iron golem. It can't miss at all. So in that regard at least, the monk is better.

so yeah you can build a monk who's fairly tough to hit but is lacking on attack.

I dont think so really. You've taken a character class based on a lot of smallish hits and put him up against something with DR 10 and assumed that he has nothing to bypass it. Obviously, this colours things a lot. I dont think you can say they are weak on offence based on that. Fighters have to specialise in their weapons, a fighter specialising in a melee weapon is going to do not much damage at all versus a target which can fly - like maybe 0 if he's particulary unprepared - but how fair a comparison is that?

But a lot of small attacks cuts both ways. If your many small attacks are being foiled by DR 10, thats bad, thats very bad. If on the other hand your many small attacks are augmented by +2d6 holy, thats good, thats very good. Look at that crane monk vs bebilith. I think a paladin would do better but probably only a paladin, at least with the magic items our gang has.

and paladins, IMHO, are extremely powerful. Especially against bebiliths. Kinda his specialist subject you might say.

What do you see the job of a skirmisher being?
Because in general full attacking rules in D20 based games and flurry is such a large part of Monk that they need it.

Sneaking around and picking targets carefully. Heavy armour dudes go at the front. Softskins go behind the heavy armour dudes.

After battle is joined, skirmishers pick away at targets of opportunity. Spring attacking barbarians with relatively low AC running in and hitting and running back out again. Shadow stepping monks stealthing up to the enemy softskins and suddenly opening the can of whupass on them. That sort of thing.