why not take prestige class

[Christian]

Re: Re: why not take prestige class

PrCl have prerequisites, true. But if the PrCl is well designed, the prerequisites make sense and are something that are going to be used by the character: the Loremaster requires many divination spells because it is supposed to be a caster who focuses in gathering knowledge; if you don't, you are not playing a Loremaster at all, except for the name on your character sheet.
If a Loremaster PrCl had costly requisites which truly make little sense and are set only to balance the next boosts from the PrCl, then it is a very poorly designed PrCl.

Exactly. The answer to, "Why doesn't every Sorcerer take the Loremaster PrC, and get his same spell progression plus the Loremaster bonus abilities?", is that not every Sorcerer wants to be that focused on divinations and knowledge skills. A Sorcerer who does want to be that focused, ought to take the Loremaster PrC, and I don't see any problem with that. A well-designed PrC should be better than a standard core class within their area of specialization-that's where the term 'prestige' comes from. That fact that the class still gets full spell progression in their original core spellcasting class doesn't mean that a character who takes it doesn't 'give up' anything. Our Sorcerer/Loremaster has given up the ability to be a piece of heavy artillery (every Sorcerer's birthright, right?) in favor of his focus on Divinations.

A Wizard gives up less, of course, in meeting the prereqs. He has extra feats to spend (a 10th level Wizard meets the feat prereq by spending one of his 4-5 standard feats on Skill Focus: Knowledge, as his bonus feats will automatically meet the other feat requirements) and generally more skill points (due to his maxed-out Int). And he'll have a lot more spells in his book than the Sorcerer has in his skull ... But then, he loses the bonus feats going forward, so he gives up a bit more after taking the class.

The Loremaster is a particularly carefully-designed PrC, of course. There are definitely some WOTC splatbook and third-party PrC's that don't manage this as well. But it's a great example of how to make a spellcasting PrC that has full caster progression and interesting powers without being overpowered.

 

[LokiDR]

My supposition is that prestige classes need to not hand out so many goodies. It's why I'm getting turned off to PrC's more and more.

One good idea would be to limit prestige classes to 5 levels max, and to limit the number of prestige classes taken to 2 or even only 1, but that's just my opinion.

But as it stands, effective caster level is not the end-all and be all. It's the PrC's that offer +1 caster level at all levels, AND THEN they add other stuff on top. It needs to be a trade-off, frankly.

I see it as a design decision. PrC are supposed to be more than base classes, mostly more specialized. I see this as an effort to encourage PCs to specialize and diversify. The more specialization in the group, the more chance that there will be holes for other characters to fill or challanges that the DM can challenge the party with.

I agree some PrC have gone overboard, like the Arcane Devotee. But other PrC are not so clear. I think the base classes should have more abilities to allow them to more generalists vs. the specialized PrC. It seems in 3.5 they are going in that direction.

 

[Scupper]

Most of the core and class books have prestige classes that give 1 spellcaster level every other level.

What you REALLY need to watch out for in a 3e campaign is blithely allowing Forgotten Realms stuff into your game. FR spellcasting prestige classes are completely overpowered, in that almost every one of them gives improved spellcasting at every level AND a special ability at every level. It's baffling how they thought that this balanced.

 

[Pax]

I could be wrong but i can only think of three prestige classes that have full +1 spellcaster level progression. What books are you guys using?

Most of the stuff in tomb and blood is +1 level every other level.
Repeat: This is a question, not a criticism. (damn internet, makes tone of voice hard to convey)

First off, a quibble with people in general. The book is not "TomB and Blood" (a tomb is where you put dead people), it is "TomE and Blood" (a tome is a big book ... the name is a reference to spellbook-based vs born-to-it based arcane spellcasting).

Next up: did someone tear pages out of your T&B, or something? Mine has plenty that give well more than 1/2level spellcasting:

Alienist (1/1)
Arcane Trickster (1/1)
Candle Caster (1/1)
Elemental Savant (9/10 -- only the LAST level fails to give a spellcasting level, too)
Mage of the Arcane Order (1/1)
True Necromancer (1/1)
Wayfarer Guide (2/3)

And two opthers -- the Fatespinner and Mindbender -- get 6/10 spellcasting, which is too close to 1/2 for me to hold up as "real" exceptions.

That, btw, is more than half the PrCs in T&B.

From other sources:

Loremaster (DMG, 1/1)
Church Inquisitor (DotF, 1/1)
Contemplative (DotF, 1/1)
Divine Oracle (DotF, 1/1)
Hospitaler (DotF, 1/1)
Master of Shrouds (DotF, 1/1 for clerics)
Sacred Exorcist (DotF, 1/1)
Bane of Infidels (MotW, 1/1)
Geomancer (MotW, 1/1)
Hexer (MotW, 1/1)
Verdant Lord (MotW, 1/1)
Virtuoso (S&S, 1/1)
Arcane Devotee (FRCS, 1/1)
Archamge (FRCS and 3.5e DMG, 1/1)
Divine Desciple (FRCS, 1/1)
Hathran (FRCS, 1/1)
Red Wizard (FRCS and 3.5e DMG, 1/1)
Runecaster (FRCS, 1/1)
Shadow Adept (FRCS, 1/1)
Guid Wizard of Waterdeep (MOF, 1/1)
Harper Mage (MOF, 1/1)
Harper Priest (MOF, 1/1)
Incantatrix (MOF, 1/1)
Mage-Killer (MOF, 1/1)
Master Alchemist (MOF, 1/1)
Mystic Wanderer (MOF, 1/1)
Spelldancer (MOF, 1/1)
War Wizard of Cormyr (MOF, 1/1)
Durthan (UE, 1/1)
Master of Yuirwood (UE, 1/1)
Raumathari BAttlemage (UE, 9/10; skips at 5th level)
Talontar Blightlord (UE, 8/10; skips at levels 6 and 10)
Yuan-Ti Cultist (SavS, 1/1)

... and I don't OWN any other books with PrC's in them, aside from the ELH (which is a whole different kettle of fish, anyway). BTW, "UE" = Unapproachable East.

 

[Pax]

My supposition is that prestige classes need to not hand out so many goodies. It's why I'm getting turned off to PrC's more and more.

One good idea would be to limit prestige classes to 5 levels max, and to limit the number of prestige classes taken to 2 or even only 1, but that's just my opinion.

But as it stands, effective caster level is not the end-all and be all. It's the PrC's that offer +1 caster level at all levels, AND THEN they add other stuff on top. It needs to be a trade-off, frankly.

Spellcasting progression is EVERYTHING to a spellcaster. Take that away, and you won't just have people saying "Hmm, it's a toss-up, stay wizard or go with a PrC"

You'll have Wizards (etc) saying "PrC? What ... do I look stupid to you?!?" Giving up more than 3 (for sorcerors, 2) spellcasting levels over the course of yoru career takes a BIG chunk out of your end-game power levels ... 9thlevel spells.

2 more levels, and you lose 8th level spells, too.

And that's not even looking at spells KNOWN at the lower levels for Sorcerors, nor spells-per-day for everyone.

What needs to be done is, make the core spellcasting classes get mroe "nifty" stuff -- nifty not uberpowerful -- at the higher levels.

Make higher-level familiars, for one, BETTER; that keeps wizards and sorcerors interested in familiars at higher levels, and I can only think of three classes, offhand, that even <i>maybe</i> give familiar progression (the Alienist in T&B, the Mystic Wanderer in MOF, and the Nar Demondbinder in UE). Granted, I think some should give the progression for specific KINDS of familiars, the way the Nar Demonbinder does (an Elemental Savant who takes the Improved Familiar feat should be allowed to get progression, IF their familiar is an elemental of their specialty element ... i.e. an Air Savant with a tiny air elemental familiar). Even if that's only partial progression, it'd make sense to me (and might warrant another spellcaster-level loss, at (say) 5th level Savant).

Taking away spellcasting progression for a spellcaster is as bad as, or worse than, taking away BAB progression for a fighter.

 

[dububbles1834]

I've debated about just making a house rule where most PrC's that are +1 existing every level, I take out about 3 levels of it.

I would like to take out the first level of +1, so that they at least have to sacrfice something. It shows they are dedicated to that one. And maybe something like the 5th. I dont want to take out the 10th, because then some people would only go up 9. I think losing 3 spellcasting levels doesnt hurt as bad as getting all the benefits most people receive from a PrC.

Always happy to hear comments, would like to know if you think this is dumming down the PrC's too much.

 

[LokiDR]

I've debated about just making a house rule where most PrC's that are +1 existing every level, I take out about 3 levels of it.

I would like to take out the first level of +1, so that they at least have to sacrfice something. It shows they are dedicated to that one. And maybe something like the 5th. I dont want to take out the 10th, because then some people would only go up 9. I think losing 3 spellcasting levels doesnt hurt as bad as getting all the benefits most people receive from a PrC.

Always happy to hear comments, would like to know if you think this is dumming down the PrC's too much.

I would rather up the core classes. Your solution would take a lot of the fun out of the PrC, making them second-class casters. The point of many spellcasting PrC is being better casters, not worse.

I like the red wizard concept. Force the caster to give up spells. Or some other aspect of casting, not the whole level. SR would just be too much.

 

[Pax]

I've debated about just making a house rule where most PrC's that are +1 existing every level, I take out about 3 levels of it.

I would like to take out the first level of +1, so that they at least have to sacrfice something. It shows they are dedicated to that one. And maybe something like the 5th. I dont want to take out the 10th, because then some people would only go up 9. I think losing 3 spellcasting levels doesnt hurt as bad as getting all the benefits most people receive from a PrC.

Always happy to hear comments, would like to know if you think this is dumming down the PrC's too much.

First off, I *do* agree that if anythign is going to be skipped, it shoudl be well before the 10th level. IMC, I'm going to move that single lost level of spellcasting ability to 1st level, for the Elemental Savant, for example.

However ... if you take 3 levels out of 1/1, what do you take out of the 9/10, or 8/10, or even 6/10 classes?

I'd also like to point out, a lot of those classes special PrC benefits <i>directly relate to spellcasting</i> ... so if you nerf their spellcasting, you (indirectly) nerfe the REST of that class' abilities.

Take Archmage, and Spellpower. Sure, sure, take out two levels of spellcasting; now the wizard has to take Spellpower +2 just to keep up in terms of SR penetration! (Speaking of the Archmage and Spellpower: I think a better fix woudl be, make it spellpower +1, +1, and +1, with escalating costs commensurate with the current +1, +2, and +3 levels ... for a total of +3, a much more reasonable benefit ...).

 

[Chun-tzu]

I agree with just about everything Pax said.

Most full-progression PrCs aren't really that uber-powerful. I seriously doubt any of them will break your game. Yes, certain combinations are incredibly powerful at high levels (Red Wizard + Archmage), but high level games are pretty lethal. The mechanics aren't really that bad. They're not 100% munchkin-proof, but no system ever is. When you have problems with players exploiting the system, the problem is with the players, not the system.

People complain that the Sorcerer has nothing to lose (except familiar progression), which is true, although a lot of people also think the Sorcerer isn't as good as the Wizard, either. But that's a topic for another thread (and there are a couple on the boards already).

Yes, WotC did screw up arcane PrCs. They don't have anything to give up, and cutting their spellcasting power is a mistake. Please, cut something else rather than spell levels. The Red Wizard loses access to schools of magic. The Guild Wizard pays a 10% XP cost. Some PrCs come with codes of behavior that cannot be violated. Limits like those are a much better way to go, IMHO.

If you're going to beef up the core classes (which is a great way to go), I think the Wizard should be the master of metamagic. As it is, metamagic goes underused in many games. Many effects just aren't worth the high cost in spell levels. But metamagic is a specialty that works perfectly with a generalist, which is what the core class Wizard is.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The problem is, by the level where Prestige Classes come into play, most of the core classes have stopped gaining new special abilities.

Particularly with preparation casters, more spells don't feel like new, special abilities. Past a certain level, Fighters feel like they're missing out on cool stuff because their feats turn into pumpkins after 8th level.

One particularly well-designed part of d20 Modern's class system is that every character, no matter what class or in what order they take classes, gains some kind of special ability. This makes every level in every class at least moderately interesting, and abilities that aren't particularly intriguing are often only a level or two before something truly interesting.