Why NOT to use damage resistance for armor...

[mroberon1972]

After a long attempt to use damage resistance to emulate the effects of armor, I have come to a sad conclusion:

There is no way to balance it without totally rebuilding the entire gaming system.

This reasoning comes from the concept of the class system and the base attack bonus they get.

This problem does not show up in lower level games (1st-6th), but does show up once they get to the mid to high levels.

What good is the Fighter's +20 to hit, if the AC of opponents always stays low, and the damage resistance goes up instead.

The truth: He gets screwed, and the classed with lower BAB levels don't.


So, DR for armor just will not work as a balanced system as it is...


On the other hand, I did finally figure out a system to emulate the differance between high kinetic impact weapons (firearms and crossbows) and low impact weapons (sword or mace). It just adds the concepts of weapons that have a 'penitrating' attribute, and armors with a 'hardened' attribute.

Penitrating weapons: Divides the AC of unhardened (just about all armors except modern and admantine) armors by 3.
Hardened armors: Allows full AC vs penitrating weapons.

Simple, yet effective.


Mr. Oberon
"3... 2... 1... Launch arguments!"

 

[DreamChaser]

What good is the Fighter's +20 to hit, if the AC of opponents always stays low, and the damage resistance goes up instead.

The truth: He gets screwed, and the classed with lower BAB levels don't.

Unless you make the DR of armor a per person per round thing. Then a fighter's 4 or 5 attacks against a low AC high DR target only get reduced once for the total of all the damage they do. Basically, each round, a person can attempt to really work a particular part of the opponents armor.

For example: Joe Fighter has a +16 BAB with modfiers his long sword attacks are +23, +18, +13, +8. He attacks Phil Fighter who is wearing plate mail (lets say DR 7/-) who has an AC of 10. Joe would likely hit all 4 times, dealing on average 4.5 + 4 (Str) + 2 (Weapon Specialization) +2 (a +2 weapon) for 12.5 average per strike. With standard DR, Joe would deal 12.5-7=5.5 x 4=22 damage, which is much lower than the 50 that he is capable of. With this change, he would do 12.5x4=50-7=43 for a much more reasonable reduction.

DC

 

[Pbartender]

What you need to do is go look at D20 Modern, Spycraft and Revised Star Wars D20.

They Spycraft and SW include DR in their various armors. They balance BABs by giving each class a Class Defense Bonus (think of it as if the character is getting better at dodging and parrying). That way, defense still increases at higher levels.

To do it quick and dirty (this is how the pre-revised Star Wars did it), simply take the character Base Reflex and add it to your Defense (or Armor Class). Unfortunately, the better fighter classes tend to have slow Reflex saves, so if you want more accurate numbers, you'll have to do it class by class... See D20 Modern (which has an SRD on the Wizards website), Spycraft and SW for good examples of Defense progressions.

 

[Gez]

I told myself, "I'll bump my old rant since we're talking about that" but I saw you already read it a while ago. Well, that'll remind it to you.

 

[mroberon1972]

I told myself, "I'll bump my old rant since we're talking about that" but I saw you already read it a while ago. Well, that'll remind it to you.

Sorry? What?


Mr. Oberon

 

[mroberon1972]

Sorry? What?


Mr. Oberon

Ah! See it now!!

Thanks Gez...

 

[Xeriar]

After a long attempt to use damage resistance to emulate the effects of armor, I have come to a sad conclusion:

There is no way to balance it without totally rebuilding the entire gaming system.

Am doing that

 

[Gez]

Am doing that

Good luck. But that's too much of a hassle for too small of a benefit IMO. I've seen several systems that were ruined by this damage reduction philosophy, that allowed the guy with the biggest armor to be invulnerable. And I mean it. You could put two dudes with the best armor and the best weapon, they would always hit each other, but never deal any damage...

 

[Xeriar]

Good luck. But that's too much of a hassle for too small of a benefit IMO. I've seen several systems that were ruined by this damage reduction philosophy, that allowed the guy with the biggest armor to be invulnerable. And I mean it. You could put two dudes with the best armor and the best weapon, they would always hit each other, but never deal any damage...

It's not just for DR and armor. That's rather a minor point, actually. I'm taking the classes out and duplicating their abilities with feats and skills, first and foremost.

Secondmost is to lose the damned Vancian magic system, or anything resembling it (ala Arcana Unearthed). Though this is my second priority it will probably come much later, after everyone else is figured out.

Thirdmost is a serious beefing of core races. I'm using humans, elves, orcs, ogres and 'sprites' as core races, with the intention to balance them.

Fourthmost is to have a sort of module system where it is easy to add or subtract entire rulesets and d20, IMO, is cumbersome.

For example, in a modern campaign you might roll strength and constitution together and add another mental stat.

Fifth is a whole swath of things detailing combat... removing face and steps, tweaking reach, adding fatigue, making weapons more lethal and armor more effective, while toning down hit points some (a human with over 100 hp is epic).

It uses a 2d10 resolution mechanic so that's what I'm calling it I think I'm about 20% done.

 

[Spatzimaus]

To the original point (replacing armor AC with armor DR entirely is bad) I'd absolutely agree. To me, the problem goes deeper though. Take it point-by-point:

1> AC is AC. It doesn't matter how you get it, increasing AC by 1 through armor is the same as increasing it through high DEX. Assuming money is no object, there's no reason to buy big bulky plate armor and a shield, when you can just get Bracers of Armor.

2> Currently, most armors have the same basic "AC cap" = Armor AC bonus + Max DEX bonus, in the 7-9 range. So, if you have a good DEX there's no real incentive to wear heavy armors. On the other hand, there's always a motivation to wear lighter armor (the movement penalties).

3> Low ACs suck. Even ignoring touch spells, there are a lot of things that trigger on a successful attack (Sneak Attack, for example) that you'd prefer to avoid.

4> DR values should never be particularly large, especially if there's no consistent way to bypass them. Making a DR 8 armor will be great against 90% of the opponents out there.
But, against the Greatsword-user who Power Attacks over your low AC, or the Rogue with a 9d6 Sneak Attack, it's far less valuable than +8 AC.

So, IMC we tried reworking the basic system, keeping the AC boost armor already gives, but adding a small DR in addition. It went something like this:
1> Find out what material the armor/shield is made of. Get its Hardness. For Steel, that's 10.
2> Medium armors and large shields give DR (Hardness/10)/Adamantine. Heavy armors give DR (Hardness/5)/Adamantine. This DR stacks with itself and with all other forms of DR. In most cases this will only give a couple points of DR.
3> To compensate, the attack bonus for Masterwork is changed to a "Material" bonus, which now stacks with magic. Better materials give better bonuses, and while the same goes for armor, it's more pronounced for weapons.

Anyway, it's worked really well so far, although it required heavily altering the Monk's Ki Strike ability.