Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Tikiman]

plus upto 11 unique/restricted powers.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. An Erudite may learn as many Discipline powers as he wants, but he has to A) find someone with that power (or a stone), and B) pay 20xp/level to get access to it (as well as spending 8 hours in meditation). Or were you reffering to the non-core powers you could select (in which case wouldn't it be 19, 1/level minus level 1 which bought you Erudite)? Or are you talking about the fact that an Erudite, at level 20, may only manifest up to 11 of his powers known per day (he can manifest them again and again, but he can only use 11 different powers per day)?

Given that everyone on this thread (even your rude, assulting arch-nemesis, me) agrees that Temporal Acceleration is probably better off banned, will you be taking the power? What about stuff like Schism, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, etc?

And don't forget to use the Complete Psionic errata. Specifically: you may only have 1 astral construct in existance at any time, crystal shard (and similar powers) are subject to all forms of damage reduction (even /magic), and Energy Missile/Stun now have a DC progression of +1/2pp spent. You know, technically, because the updated versions of these powers appear in a non-core book, you should have to expend your 1 non-core thing/level to get them. But that's kinda splitting hairs.

Well, considering that your going for broken, I have every faith in your ability to acheive it.
I have less faith in what it will prove.. but whatever you and your fellow players enjoy!

What he said.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Can we agree then that the assertion that psions are balanced because they have fewer powers known is unfounded?



How is he completely immune to this? Freedom of movement, using up a 4th lvl slot? This can be dispelled. A ring of fom? Why should the psion get this for free? Buffs can be dispelled, but the psion is always immune to this tactic. Why? Where is the drawback?



Arcane casters don't take this because there is a cost involved: higher level spell slots AND feat slots. This doesn't make the ability bad; the ability is great, it's just not worth the high cost.

Don't forget the most important benefit to having a simultaneously Stilled, Silent spells with eschew materials (3 free feats and 2 spell slots for the psion): interruptions. You cannot ready actions against psions. This is a significant advantage and I don't see the drawback for this.



It's not a trade we're talking about here. I said if they were identical, except one class had the feature for free. What's the purpose of the advantage?



It's still an advantage that needs to be balanced. Would you give them a level of outsider for free?




Can you name a few of these spells so we can discuss them?

Most of them are "HD = caster level - 10", and the vast majority of encounters in published sources do not involve creatures that are 10 HD below the party.

The Psion hardly gets his Ring of FOM for free.. I paid as much for mine as the Arcanist did for his, and I wanted it just as bad. Ive got better things to do with my life than try to make concentration checks and praying while the improved-grabber-o-doom is warming up his Full Attack Action. EVERY caster should get a ring of FoM. Heck, everyone should get it. Grab is too good, and the R of FoM is 'standard equipment' at my tables, because of it.

I agree that any assertion based on the Psion being balanced with the Sorcerer based on powers known is likely false.

RE: Still, silent, etc. Yup, a Psion can mask his casting in ways the mage cannot. Nowhere in the psionics book does it say that you cant ready an action against it (and as it provokes AoOs, I and every GM I run with has ruled that its sufficiently obvious to ready against). If you dont want to get readied against, go Quicken.

If the two were completely identical, then of course, X+N>X, where the value of N is greater than 0. However, the two are not externally identical (as you are so fond of pointing out) and I contend that the advantage, while not nonexistant, is also not sufficient to be unbalancing. I contend that you overstate the value of N, and have said why.

You know, I see where this is going. You contend that in any time, in any way, psionics is better than magic, it is an advantage that needs to be balanced by Psionics giving up something it currently has to balance it out. I contend that psionics gives up many things it Arcane magic currently has. A few free feats, for one. Continuing Support for another. A Complete book that isnt errata+nerfs, for a third. The ability to summon mutlilpe creatures at once, theres one. Better Save-or-Dies, longer power list with lots of very useful specialized effects, more ability to buff the party, better board control, better AOE save-or-dies earlier..


As for 'No Save, Just Die'
1.) Otto's Irresistable Dance. No Save. Just Die.
2.) Mordenkainens Disjunction: Hmm.. Okay, I take this one back half-way.. your items get a save. So call it all your hanging effects and half your magic items. Thats a 'W' in my book.
3.) Power Word: Kill.
4.) Enervation Salvos.

Above is core only, top-of-my-head only.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Oh, and by the way... I'm still curious as to the response to:

"Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.

This stems from a number of factors:
1.) Feat Shortage. Its difficult to emulate a Wizard when your down two feats right out the door. (Down three or four if you count the cost of actually USING metamagic, but... the Psion is a more casual user of metamagic than the Wizard, so this is a bonus).
1a.) Change Psions to recieve Psycrstals and Enscribe Power Stone for free at first level, same as Scribe Scroll and Familiar. Note that Psicrystals are better in some ways than Familiar... but OTOH, a raven is just a raven. A rock with ectoplasmic legs skittering along the ceiling draws comment.

2.) Any psion is by definition closed off from getting a vast majority of the basic 'wizarding options' that he needs to fill the wizard role in parties.
2a.) Allow Psions to choose freely from other discipline lists, perhaps limit them to one level lower than their current max level knowable.

3.) The psions need to pour PSPs into powers to keep them functional causes him to have shorter legs than the wizard.
3a.) While I'm tempted to suggest 'free scaling' up to the common breakpoint for Psions (IE, up to 10 dice for lvl 3 powers, etc), that might be a bit much.

4.) Psion mainstay powers, being low level, tend to fail in the presence of dispels or Globes.
4a.) Every two PsPs spent to enhance a power should also increase its level by 1 for purposes of effects that tend to cancel or counter said power.

 

[Tikiman]

Taraxia, Takasi, Tikiman... Its getting to where I need a play card to know which of you to flame when I see you posting. Seriously though, its kinda nice.. forces me to assess posts, and not posters.

You're flaming me? I didn't notice that. *looks down at singed arm hair* Oh, THAT'S what that smell is.

One question.. do you find that the 10xp/rnd thing AND the "X % of Resources-per-fight' thing are necessary at the same time?

I sorta do. I've seen people pull off some pretty efficient novas. I basically use the two rules for two different purposes though (an abusable power for TA, metagaming for % cards), so I never really considered their cumulative effects. I suppose you could get away with just one of them, in which case I would recommend the % resource cards more. A lot of the time if people are worried enough to use TA, and I deem it an appropriate usage, I will wave the % cards to avoid TPK situations. So long as they're running like little girls it's all good.

One interseting side-light is the Tome of Battle stuff.. with the sword-magic-folks going to a 'Per-Fight' rather than a 'Per-Day' paradigm, I've been wondering what D+D would look like rebalanced around a 'per fight' paradigm. Move away from grinding down even-CR encounters and retreating to recharge, to a little more direct heroism, and retreating when the sun goes down or when you get seriously overextended. My concern would of course be the vast increase in character mortality... but its still a thought.

I would absolutely love to see 4th edition introduce a /encounter system, instead of a /day system. I didn't know Tome of Battle had relevant material on it though (haven't been able to snag the book). Between that and what I've read of The Book of Nine Swords, I may very well get my wish.

Additional side-thought... Hmm... maybe juggle Psionics so that your 'per fight' expenditure is 20% of your 'list total', and then put a HP burn (like ability burn, but maybe-worth-actually-doing) to go above that (of course, no burning temp HPs, friends HPs, healed HPs, healble HPs, etc)... with full recharges between fights. Maybe do something similar with the Arcanists, etc. Might be intersting.. wed limit the impact of the Per-Day guys, to help balance their impact with the poor every-round bastards... though the implications for repeated, out of combat use of certain powers might be iffy. Okay, back on topic!

BESM D20 has an 'Advanced d20 Magic' system that you might be interested in. You don't have any spells/day. Instead, every time you cast a spell you make a Fort save against the spells DC (better spells = higher DC). Every time you cast you take Drain damage (subdual damage, cannot be magically healed). If you pass the DC by 10 or more, you take 1/2 drain damage. If you fail the save, you take double drain damage and must make a Control check (failure results in the spell fizzling, and possibly harmful side-effects for the caster like being Dazed or Stunned). As examples, Magic Missile has a DC of 20 and causes 1d6 drain damage. Fireball has a DC of 34 and deals 1d10 drain damage. Sadly, I haven't found a group that wants to give this system a try, so the book has just been collecting dust.

A Complete book that isnt errata+nerfs,

And all the editing errors. Can't forget something that shows up at every turn of the page. I especially love how Energy Emanation was changed to no longer allow a save, but the electric variant of it still says it adds +2 to the save DC.

 

[takasi]

The Psion hardly gets his Ring of FOM for free.. I paid as much for mine as the Arcanist did for his, and I wanted it just as bad. Ive got better things to do with my life than try to make concentration checks and praying while the improved-grabber-o-doom is warming up his Full Attack Action. EVERY caster should get a ring of FoM. Heck, everyone should get it. Grab is too good, and the R of FoM is 'standard equipment' at my tables, because of it.

It's extremely easy to make those concentration checks, to the point that it's meaningless.

RE: Still, silent, etc. Yup, a Psion can mask his casting in ways the mage cannot. Nowhere in the psionics book does it say that you cant ready an action against it (and as it provokes AoOs, I and every GM I run with has ruled that its sufficiently obvious to ready against). If you dont want to get readied against, go Quicken.

That's a house rule. The enemy must be be aware of trigger conditions in order to ready an action. The reason for the AoO is not because an enemy notices the manifestation, it's because the psion cannot defend against it. Manifestations, even silent ones, require concentration, effectively dropping their guard. Combat in d20 is abstract and it is assumed that a character is always trying to hit someone with an attack and someone in melee is always trying to avoid that attack. Anything that prevents someone from defending themselves provokes an AoW, whether you can tell what they're doing or not.

Do you feel it's "broken" without the house rule?

If the two were completely identical, then of course, X+N>X, where the value of N is greater than 0. However, the two are not externally identical (as you are so fond of pointing out) and I contend that the advantage, while not nonexistant, is also not sufficient to be unbalancing. I contend that you overstate the value of N, and have said why.

Exactly how much do you value these advantages? What has the psion given up for these?

You know, I see where this is going. You contend that in any time, in any way, psionics is better than magic, it is an advantage that needs to be balanced by Psionics giving up something it currently has to balance it out. I contend that psionics gives up many things it Arcane magic currently has.

You're right, and I think this is a great way to analyze class balance. You would need to rate every advantage and disadvantage and compare them with the rest of the game.

A few free feats, for one. Continuing Support for another. A Complete book that isnt errata+nerfs, for a third. The ability to summon mutlilpe creatures at once, theres one. Better Save-or-Dies, longer power list with lots of very useful specialized effects, more ability to buff the party, better board control, better AOE save-or-dies earlier..

Product support is important to consider, which is why I prefer to compare supplements to core vs class vs class. Core vs XPH. You could also compare supplement+core to supplement+core. Core+Tome of Magic vs Core+XPH. Core+Complete Arcane vs Core+XPH+Complete Psion. As others have suggested (including you), a better balance discussion limits book comparisons, so the drawback of "support" is negated.

As for 'No Save, Just Die'
1.) Otto's Irresistable Dance. No Save. Just Die.
2.) Mordenkainens Disjunction: Hmm.. Okay, I take this one back half-way.. your items get a save. So call it all your hanging effects and half your magic items. Thats a 'W' in my book.
3.) Power Word: Kill.
4.) Enervation Salvos.

1.) No save, crowd control (single target).
2.) No save, dispel (save for items)
3.) No save, 100 damage max
4.) What's this one?

 

[takasi]

I few pages back I asked for feedback on a per encounter take on psionics.

Take your level plus stat power bonus and multiply it by some factor to be determined by playtesting. Add a regenerative factor of x pp every minute, effectively making point management a per encounter affair for the most part.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

It's extremely easy to make those concentration checks, to the point that it's meaningless.



That's a house rule. The enemy must be be aware of trigger conditions in order to ready an action. The reason for the AoO is not because an enemy notices the manifestation, it's because the psion cannot defend against it. Manifestations, even silent ones, require concentration, effectively dropping their guard. Combat in d20 is abstract and it is assumed that a character is always trying to hit someone with an attack and someone in melee is always trying to avoid that attack. Anything that prevents someone from defending themselves provokes an AoW, whether you can tell what they're doing or not.

Do you feel it's "broken" without the house rule?



Exactly how much do you value these advantages? What has the psion given up for these?



You're right, and I think this is a great way to analyze class balance. You would need to rate every advantage and disadvantage and compare them with the rest of the game.



Product support is important to consider, which is why I prefer to compare supplements to core vs class vs class. Core vs XPH. You could also compare supplement+core to supplement+core. Core+Tome of Magic vs Core+XPH. Core+Complete Arcane vs Core+XPH+Complete Psion. As others have suggested (including you), a better balance discussion limits book comparisons, so the drawback of "support" is negated.



1.) No save, crowd control (single target).
2.) No save, dispel (save for items)
3.) No save, 100 damage max
4.) What's this one?

1.) RE Concentration Checks when Grappled: Considering that the grapple also probably came with some damage, some continuing damage, and in the anticipation of you-just-died damage, Ill pay the gold and not roll.

2.) RE: House Rule. We differ in perception. My perception is that you would be aware that a foe is provoking AOOs (else, how could one make them? And they cant just happen automatically, without your concious involvement, else how could you choose NOT to make them?)

3.) Well, he gave up infinite spells known, two free feats of higher relative value (if you wish, in my games, I suppose you may get psionic 'manifesting' in place of arcane finger-waving etc., and a 5XP per GP ratio for expensive magic items, rather than the familiar and scribe scroll. As a GM, I wouldnt have a problem with that trade being made by a player) and all the other differences that are advantage mage.

4.) Placing exact values on every advantage and disadvantage and weighing them: Its a good starting place, but its not the end of the analysis. Lets face it, even in an everything-has-a-cost system (say, the HERO system), and even assuming that all those costs are exactly correct for the general condition (a big assumption, and one that no game has yet met, IMHO), then certain combinations of those abilities will still outperform others.

5.) Product Support defines the play environment, which is why it is a consideration at the very least in balance discussions, IMHO. I intially offered to compare at the core+complete level (That is to say, Complete Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer, and Psion, coupled with the XPH, the PHB, the DMG, and MM1). At least one poster (was it you?) was unhappy with that chosen level. Oh, well, cant please everyone.

RE: Spells.

In my gaming experience, crowd control is very nearly transitive with death in game situations. While a CCed target is not YET dead, he probably can be very easily MADE dead, and his absence from the fight throws the balance against his side pretty seriously (assuming he was a significant target. If he was the Goblin compainon of a Great Wyrm, and you should be fighting a Great Wyrm, ignore him. If hes one of 3 same-CR baddies in an encounter, and you put him out of the fight for even two rounds, the fight is pretty much done)

As for Mordenkainens Disjunction: While not a kill in and of itself, the advantage generated is, like Ottos Dance, sufficient to generate one.

As for Power Word: Kill (and argueably its lesser cousins are BETTER, tactically, as they work on higher HP targets)... for anything with HP <= 100, its a death sentence. Ive played alot of PCs that had <=100 HPs. As for foes? Sure, you have to wait till round 2 or so, but after the Barbarian Charged it, you nuked it, the rogue shanked it, and the cleric whapped it, its a 'forced close' button. Turns any close call fight into a win.
And why are you fighting things that you cant get under 100HP before they TPK you, anyway?

Enervation Salvos: I was referring to Enervation+Quickened Enervation, Quickened Enervation+Dual Wand Wielding for 2 more, or Metamagiced Innervation. Its one of those things that gets nasty, fast, when you start piling it out. 2d4 negative levels stinks. 4+1d4 Negative levels REALLY stinks. Best bet is to have one memorized Quickened, Split (and run it through a rod of Maximize) and have one memorized Maximized, Split (and run it through a Rod of Quicken). 16 Negative Levels, no save.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

I few pages back I asked for feedback on a per encounter take on psionics.

Take your level plus stat power bonus and multiply it by some factor to be determined by playtesting. Add a regenerative factor of x pp every minute, effectively making point management a per encounter affair for the most part.

Hmm.. come up with a % that makes everyone happy, and I could get behind that.

I prefer per-encounter management rather than per-day management.

Put in some fashion to exceed those limits, with an appropriate risk/penalty, and Id be on board 100%.

Now, it would cost the psion some of his flavour (I really like the fine-throttle-control of the Psion), but my preferences for per-encounter are even stronger, so I could live with it, no worries.

Thoughts:
1.) Base it off of total PSPs. This encourages feats that give extra PsPs (at least at epic level, where such feats matter)
2.) Give some method of 'pushing' Pushing is heroic.
3.) Were you planning on doing this with Arcane/Divine as well? Good and bad both ways...
4.) Pay careful attention to out-of-combat, problem-solving type powers. Divinations, especially. A character with unlimited divinations per day is going to be just hell in any kind of non-raw-combat adventure... and damn devastating IN a raw-combat adventure.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. An Erudite may learn as many Discipline powers as he wants, but he has to A) find someone with that power (or a stone), and B) pay 20xp/level to get access to it (as well as spending 8 hours in meditation). Or were you reffering to the non-core powers you could select (in which case wouldn't it be 19, 1/level minus level 1 which bought you Erudite)? Or are you talking about the fact that an Erudite, at level 20, may only manifest up to 11 of his powers known per day (he can manifest them again and again, but he can only use 11 different powers per day)?

Given that everyone on this thread (even your rude, assulting arch-nemesis, me) agrees that Temporal Acceleration is probably better off banned, will you be taking the power? What about stuff like Schism, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, etc?

And don't forget to use the Complete Psionic errata. Specifically: you may only have 1 astral construct in existance at any time, crystal shard (and similar powers) are subject to all forms of damage reduction (even /magic), and Energy Missile/Stun now have a DC progression of +1/2pp spent. You know, technically, because the updated versions of these powers appear in a non-core book, you should have to expend your 1 non-core thing/level to get them. But that's kinda splitting hairs.


What he said.

Please read all of page 154 in the complete Psionicist. An Erudite cannot automatically learn or unlock powers from any discipline list (Egoist, Shaper, Telepath, ect). He may unlock 2 disciplines of any level he can manifest from the Psion/Wilder lists. The unique powers per day are from powers on a discipline list or another list such as a mantle or class list. This class is considered one thing outside of non-core. I'm unlocking the class as my 1st level unlock.

 

[Tikiman]

That's a house rule. The enemy must be be aware of trigger conditions in order to ready an action.

It's a house rule no matter which way you go. There are no rules for what happens when you manifest without displays other then you manifest without displays. The closest analogy, casting without components, imposes a -10 to opponents spellcraft checks but is in every other way 100% identical to regular casting, including readied actions. Also, the XPH specifically states that manifesting a power causes a "faraway gaze, the focus on something other then the material world, and the split-second of focus required to manifest a power." You are 100% within your rights as DM to state that this is all it takes to set off a triggered action. The ball has been in your court from day 1. Now take that ball and hit your players squarely between the legs/eyes (as you see fit).


And I really feel the need to stick my nose into your business and give you a bit of advice about wildstarsreach's upcoming Erudite (sorry ). I would specifically like to call to attention the fact that you are 100% within your rights to deny him access to powers he tries to gain (except the 2/level he gets). Right in the description of the Erudite it states "many [psions] jealousy guard their higher level powers and charge much more (or deny access to them altogether)". This means that he can't just walk down to the local Psi-mart and pick up any power he wants to. Additionally, you have to take into account that you're playing in an Ebberon setting. There are almost no higher level casters in the world.

As evidence of this, I cite Sharn: City of Towers. Sharn is one of the largest cities on the planet, and it has the biggest magical goods economy ("If it can be bought, it can be bought here"). On page 23 it states that "There are no resident NPCs in Sharn who can cast spells of 7th level or higher, and few who can cast 6th level spells...are unlikely to exchange their services for gold, dealing instead in favors and services. As a general rule, characters can only purchase spells of 5th level or below. Finding higher-level spells should be part of a quest or adventure." And all of this applies to magic, which is insanely abundant in Eberron. I can only guess that psionic materials would be more difficult to find. This is six times more true for Discipline powers.

Now I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game, and I apologize if this comes off as bossy, but I really had to throw it out there. wildstarsreach is going to metagame the system to make his character powerful, so I suggest you metagame his power access in return to keep him in line with the rest of the party. He apparently refuses to balance himself in this regard.

Couldn't you do us all a favor and beat him until he makes a character on par with the rest of the group? I recommend Complete Psionic, as it's probably the only thing the book does properly.

I few pages back I asked for feedback on a per encounter take on psionics.
Take your level plus stat power bonus and multiply it by some factor to be determined by playtesting. Add a regenerative factor of x pp every minute, effectively making point management a per encounter affair for the most part.

Unfortunately the entire D&D system is based around the concept of encounters/day, so this system would have a lot of wonky loose ends. Powers that last 1hr/level would basically no longer have any cost. Extend Power + 10min/level powers would also have no cost. People would walk around continually re-manifesting Extended 1min/level powers as well. The Unearthed Arcana recharge system has similar faults.

The best I can suggest is my % resource card idea. Allow manifesters acces to 20% of their PP pool, +10%/CR the encounter exceeds the party level (so, party level 3 + CR 5 encounter = 40%, roughly 7pp). A similar system can, and should, be applied to casters as well. Though, actually, in your case it may be best to just apply this system to wildstarsreach only.