Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Tikiman]

You don't want to fix the system, just brow beat since in your opinion of my experience has no validity. Even though I've suggested reasonable fixes. I find that.....

Oh contraire. I have a houserule that where Temporal Acceleration costs 10xp per round you gain. And any material from a non-core book (even campaign books) is assumed to be broken until proven otherwise. I'll gladly go over this material if someone wants it, but it may very well end up deformed and much less potent before it makes it to the gaming table. The important point is that I played with the system as is for a year before I decided to make any changes. And when I did decide to make changes, I researched what others had experienced to determine if there was an actual problem with the system or if it was just a table specific 'this doesn't work so well in your campaign' thing.

Valid: "assertions, arguments, conclusions, reasons, or intellectual processes that are persuasive because they are well founded. What is valid is based on or borne out by truth or fact." By the definition of valid your opinion has little validity. It is not based on well founded fact, it is based on a single biased experience that has been proven erroneous due to your powergaming. Many things you have stated have not 'borne out'; they have been countered/refuted.

My problem isn't with the fixes your proposing. My problem is that you're proposing fixes to something just for sake of fixing it, not for the sake of actually solving any problems. This is change for the sake of change. How is what you're doing logical?

Okay, so know historian can really have an opinion since they did not experience it themselves. That will destroy the entire academic community.

Opinion: "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof." Anyone can have an opinion, but opinions do not rely on facts or evidence. Therefore it is highly illogical to base rules and fixes on mere opinion. Lots of people are of the opinion that D&D is the tool of the Devil. Does that mean it should be made illegal?

I can look at the numbers, use the part of that I have observed. I can make conclusions based the evidence I have.

Please explain to me how you can logically use your current experience with a non-psion, that you powergamed in a group of non-powergamers, as evidence that all of psionics is broken compared to all of magic. I'm completely baffled as to how that works.

Again, you appear to have ignored me.

How. Where. Please quote something I haven't addressed.

I make a straight psion every level to replace the character if he is killed. This character from paper looks more broken than Jaden.

Overpowered compared to your underpowered group that wants you to be overpowered? Or overpowered compared to the entirety of what is possible for an arcane caster (like the 73k damage in one round wizard build). And is he overpowered because you just can't make a non-broken psionic character, or is he overpowered because you intentionally built him to be overpowered?

And I love the fact that you're ignoring what your own DM posted. He says there isn't a problem. Is his opinion invalid?

 

[wildstarsreach]

You're kidding right.

You're saying that resist 30 to Fire/Cold/Electric/Sonic is equal to a 9th level power/spell? Did you know that there's an arcane/divine version that grants total immunity to a specified energy type? I believe Energy Immunity is a 6th level spell. There's also a 9th level spell that makes you immune to all energy types.

How is resist 30 to 4 types equal to total immunity to all energy types?

Nope, I was commenting on what the poster said. Personally I think that is is worth between a 6th to 8th level power. I think that 7th is probably the target.

7 PP's to start, 3 additional PP's at 10th for 20 points and 13 PP's at 13th for 30 points against 5 different energy types for 10 mins/level.

 

[takasi]

Or overpowered compared to the entirety of what is possible for an arcane caster (like the 73k damage in one round wizard build).

That build is no longer possible with the polymorph errata, from what I understand. I may be wrong, but it seems like that build is based on exploiting polymorphing into a nagahydra, casting multiple time stops in the same round, and using circle magic from forgotten realms to create dozens of metamagic'd scorching rays.

IMO energy ray is better than even this uber combo simply because that 73K is useless against a creature that's immune to fire. Again, the psion has the advantage of versatility as well as raw power.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Oh contraire. I have a houserule that where Temporal Acceleration costs 10xp per round you gain. And any material from a non-core book (even campaign books) is assumed to be broken until proven otherwise. I'll gladly go over this material if someone wants it, but it may very well end up deformed and much less potent before it makes it to the gaming table. The important point is that I played with the system as is for a year before I decided to make any changes. And when I did decide to make changes, I researched what others had experienced to determine if there was an actual problem with the system or if it was just a table specific 'this doesn't work so well in your campaign' thing.

Valid: "assertions, arguments, conclusions, reasons, or intellectual processes that are persuasive because they are well founded. What is valid is based on or borne out by truth or fact." By the definition of valid your opinion has little validity. It is not based on well founded fact, it is based on a single biased experience that has been proven erroneous due to your powergaming. Many things you have stated have not 'borne out'; they have been countered/refuted.

My problem isn't with the fixes your proposing. My problem is that you're proposing fixes to something just for sake of fixing it, not for the sake of actually solving any problems. This is change for the sake of change. How is what you're doing logical?



Opinion: "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof." Anyone can have an opinion, but opinions do not rely on facts or evidence. Therefore it is highly illogical to base rules and fixes on mere opinion. Lots of people are of the opinion that D&D is the tool of the Devil. Does that mean it should be made illegal?


Please explain to me how you can logically use your current experience with a non-psion, that you powergamed in a group of non-powergamers, as evidence that all of psionics is broken compared to all of magic. I'm completely baffled as to how that works.


How. Where. Please quote something I haven't addressed.


Overpowered compared to your underpowered group that wants you to be overpowered? Or overpowered compared to the entirety of what is possible for an arcane caster (like the 73k damage in one round wizard build). And is he overpowered because you just can't make a non-broken psionic character, or is he overpowered because you intentionally built him to be overpowered?

And I love the fact that you're ignoring what your own DM posted. He says there isn't a problem. Is his opinion invalid?

I am not further debating you. This is the house rules forum. Maybe if these rules were going to be official, then your debate might hold water. Someone else complained about the attacks. Drop it please. As house rules, I want a discussion, not endless arguments on who is who.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

-tags Tikiman and goes back over the rope for the last time-

I'm out. This will go nowhere. There were occasional flashes of vague hope... but no.

To the OP: Feel free to nerf until its comfortable for you. Once youve nerfed psionics enough that an optimized Wizard/Psion hybrid is on par with a collection of generally lower level, more poorly equipped, non-optimized characters, I imagine you will be happy, as may be the GMs that you play with that currently resist using psionics.

Heck, people may even still play Psions... history proves that no matter how underpowered a class is, either mechanically or perception, some people will play it.. and others will optimize even the lowest of the low into performing well.

I do have one closing question, and this is probably approprois nothing... what is your (I refer both to the OP and to Thanee) thought on the current running debate between the Creationists and the Evolutionists?

-Scratch some of the above-

You know, this is fascinating. I think I'll stay and play after all, on the terms as they have been outlined.

"Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.

This stems from a number of factors:
1.) Feat Shortage. Its difficult to emulate a Wizard when your down two feats right out the door. (Down three or four if you count the cost of actually USING metamagic, but... the Psion is a more casual user of metamagic than the Wizard, so this is a bonus).
1a.) Change Psions to recieve Psycrstals and Enscribe Power Stone for free at first level, same as Scribe Scroll and Familiar. Note that Psicrystals are better in some ways than Familiar... but OTOH, a raven is just a raven. A rock with ectoplasmic legs skittering along the ceiling draws comment.

2.) Any psion is by definition closed off from getting a vast majority of the basic 'wizarding options' that he needs to fill the wizard role in parties.
2a.) Allow Psions to choose freely from other discipline lists, perhaps limit them to one level lower than their current max level knowable.

3.) The psions need to pour PSPs into powers to keep them functional causes him to have shorter legs than the wizard.
3a.) While I'm tempted to suggest 'free scaling' up to the common breakpoint for Psions (IE, up to 10 dice for lvl 3 powers, etc), that might be a bit much.

4.) Psion mainstay powers, being low level, tend to fail in the presence of dispels or Globes.
4a.) Every two PsPs spent to enhance a power should also increase its level by 1 for purposes of effects that tend to cancel or counter said power.

Im sure there are more, but thats a start.

 

[Tikiman]

That build is no longer possible with the polymorph errata, from what I understand.

I never follwed the polymorph errata very closely because I never use the spell (nor does it get used at my tables). Given that the build uses shapechage, and I can't see any relevant changes in the 3.5 PHB errata, I honestly don't have a clue how the build would be affected.

However, the 2k damage as a swift action is a pure Faerun tactic that doesn't rely upon the shapechange cheese. Searing Spell from Sandstorm eliminates the Fire Immunity worry (I think it reduces it to Resistance 30 or something like that). A cheap metamagic rod of Energy Substitution could also let you get around this. Without shapechange this build is still capable of taking out a couple of pit fiends as a swift action.

I am not further debating you. This is the house rules forum. Maybe if these rules were going to be official, then your debate might hold water. Someone else complained about the attacks. Drop it please. As house rules, I want a discussion, not endless arguments on who is who.

So we're continuing with the 'I'm going to say you're attacking me so I don't have to respond to you' line of "logic"? Or is this reheated leftovers from the 'I don't listen to people who disagree with me' post? I honestly don't know how anyone with a degree in logic could use such tactics though. Well, maybe if you were a politician...(now THAT was an attack )

Either way I still think you should just listen to your DM.

-tags Tikiman and goes back over the rope for the last time-

roflmao. This thread has been so darn amusing. I hate to see it devolve into an anti-psi circle-jerk. But that's what the OP wants, so oh well.

"Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.

Ooh, this sounds fun. But no, I'll stay out of it. My opinion isn't worth as much as wildstarsreach's, so I guess I'll just admit that I'm a total noob who doesn't know anything about logic or balance.

Not that I won't keep tabs on this thread mind you.

 

[takasi]

I never follwed the polymorph errata very closely because I never use the spell (nor does it get used at my tables). Given that the build uses shapechage, and I can't see any relevant changes in the 3.5 PHB errata, I honestly don't have a clue how the build would be affected.

Not sure what the shapechange is for then, as I don't see the advantage to becoming a nagahydra if you can't assume its supernatural powers.

However, the 2k damage as a swift action is a pure Faerun tactic...

Well there's your answer: the Forgotten Realms are broken.

Seriously though, anything that not only gives you multiple timestops but also allows you to have multiple actions within a timestop, in my opinion, provides an overwhelming advantage in the game. This is by definition "unbalanced". Is this the fault of "arcane magic"? No. Should it be included in a discussion on balancing arcane magic? Certainly.

I don't have the energy nor the inclination to discuss this topic. I would love to see more intelligent and dedicated people than myself have a discussion on "balancing psionics". The first question would be identifying what is and what isn't "balanced". I think a few people had some very good ideas on how to set up ground rules for this type of discussion, but I think those were ignored several pages ago.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

RE: Temporal Powers

Alot of people tend to forget that the time stop, etc. powers dont let you direct damage during them, anymore... your pretty much limited to summoning, leaving lingering effects, etc.

Mind you, that doesnt keep 'Time Effects' from being an I-win-button, but it does mitigate some of their power, and sets a slight tax on pressing the 'I win button'

 

[Taraxia]

The mages Force effects are not item of discussion and does not follow with what you asked. Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, ect. have access to more types of energy such as positive, negative, shadow and so on.

Shadow evocation gives a full or 1/5 damage. It is one spell unlike every energy power that the psion has.

So, with having the ability to have any of the 4 types of damage (fire, cold, electricity and sonic) is balance by the lack of the other types of damage being absent?

Er, yes? It is?

I mean, YES, isn't that answer obvious? That it doesn't matter nearly so much to be able to switch off between the four elemental energy damages at a whim if you can have a non-elemental energy damage that nothing resists, and that affects incorporeal creatures?

Not that damage really matters -- save-or-die is much scarier, and both wizards and clerics get better save-or-die effects than the psion.

 

[Taraxia]

That build is no longer possible with the polymorph errata, from what I understand. I may be wrong, but it seems like that build is based on exploiting polymorphing into a nagahydra, casting multiple time stops in the same round, and using circle magic from forgotten realms to create dozens of metamagic'd scorching rays.

IMO energy ray is better than even this uber combo simply because that 73K is useless against a creature that's immune to fire. Again, the psion has the advantage of versatility as well as raw power.

The polymorph errata hasn't actually nerfed polymorph, or erased it from the game. What it has done is deleted all references to polymorph from the other rules so that polymorph *can* be erased from the game, which is clearly the direction WotC is leaning.

Although you can't use polymorph to get Supernatural Abilities anyway -- for that you need shapechange, a 9th-level spell.