Why RPGs are Failing

[Belen]

I am going to lay it out flat as to why the industry is going back into a slump... D&D3 was/is a sort of fad, more like D20 is a fad among pop culture. I am not saying it is bad because not all fads are bad. But, and this is a big but, like most fads prices started gouging the players...

See, we KNOW that you get more entertainment value out of an RPG than a movie or video game, but when you look at the prices of RPGs there has been a rapid escalation of prices. I don't care about the arguements about entertainment value etc, RPGs are WAY over-priced and are going to reach a comic book level of niche market. Comparing an RPG to a movie or DVD is like comparing apples and oranges because they are very different things and are not the same sort of market. When a person could buy a DVD for 20 or an RPG book for FORTY FRICKIN' DOLLARS, 90% at least are going with the DVD. Sure you get more entertainment value from the RPG but they are different types of entertainment. RPGs require more of a commitment on the part of the participants than watching a movie. Playing a video game provides a more visual experience than RPGs and you can turn it off when you get bored. I have sat through 6 hour sessions in campaigns that were otherwise fine, but been bored out of my mind for the whole session and want to leave, but can't because my turn could come up soon. Video game, power button.

Video game prices are ridiculous. When I look at the prices on the Spycraft line I feel ill, they are B&W for God's sake. I feel ill at the price of Dragonlance books. To think I have to buy another product in order to play these products!!!! That is almost a 150 dollar investment!

See the thing is, most other RPG lines are comfy, even D&D is comfy. It isn't the industry as a whole, but D20 is thinning out now and the bubble has popped. No doom and gloom, just too much product and grossly inflated prices.

Jason

I am in 100% agreement here. Prices have been going through the roof with no end in site. Point in case, AEG's $100 dollar super-dungeon.

It is impossible to find decently priced RPGs any longer, except those annoying PDFs. There was a time when I would buy and adventure or short supplement for under 15 bucks. Good luck finding stuff like that now.

I am sure that people will soon point out a dozen products that I could find online that fit this price, but maybe I want to go to the hobby shop and find something on the shelf!

<sigh> Maybe this one needs a thread of its own.

Dave

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

The group of people who like, or would like, games that stress competition, and finite system and possibilities is finite.

The group of people who like, or would like, games that stress imagination, story and character is finite.

Far fewer of the second group have been exposed to roleplaying games than the first. Marketing of D&D, which is the only game that's ever been marketed to speak of, has always been directed at players of wargames, board games, and video games, rather than adult and precocious-child readers, cinemagoers, theatregoers, etc. I don't suppose RPGers would double overnight if Wizards targeted this group, but it's the main avenue for expansion of RPGs and Wizards is the only company with the ability to try, and I wish that it would.

(Of course, the whole idea of a 'gamer' and gamer culture is a big barrier to people taking up a roleplaying as a medium rather than as a hobby or a lifestyle...)

It has taken eight pages to finally get to something I can agree on about changing D&D to help out its popularity. Change the marketing to try and show that it is a fun game to experience. Thanks.

And yes, the prices have been getting crazy considering I think the content has been slipping as of late. How many PrCs and feats do you really need, anyway?

 

[volcivar]

MythusMage,

The RPG industry supports all styles of play. I challenge you to prove otherwise. DnD supports all styles of play. I challenge you to prove otherwise. Rule 0 makes this possible, at least, for DnD. Don't like a rule? Change it or don't use it. We can all pare down the rules and have rules lite game. Don't want to pay for rules you don't use? Use the SRD. Do the RAW support one style over another? Certainly. Do we need to play it that way? Certainly not. Do we have alternate rules/methods to choose from? Yes. Can we use our own rules/methods? Yes.

The player, however, is responsible for thier own imagination. There are plenty if tidbits in the core books to provide a catalyst for our imagination. Reading the monster entries in the Monster Manual, reading about the Races and the Deities in the Players Handbook, all provide inspiration to fuel the imagination. If that wasn't enough, there are novels, movies, PC games, console games, and heck, REAL LIFE. All these can provide myriad inspirations to those who let them.

DnD/D20 already provides plenty as it is. There are enough alternate systems/rules to satisfy any who are willing to look around the internet, or browse thier FLGS. I don't think DnD needs reinventing because it is under constant redesign by the D20 community. If you feel you have something to contribue to our community please do so. I, for one, would like to see your ideas.

So sales are down! Big deal. They go up, then they go down, as someone else in this thread has pointed out the cyclical nature of sales, and how hard it is to pin down the causes of its ups and downs. You say that RPGs are failing. Failing at what? I think they do a great job of providing me with an intellectually stimulating, stress reducing hobby. I give the RPG industry an A+.

I play the game as I see fit. I have fun most of the time. I don't let a book tell me how to have fun, but I use it as a inspiration and a guide. I don't use every rule as written, I change the ones I don't like. In the end how we play is up to us.

One last point. You seem to have a problem with the fact that what we do is play a game. However much you dislike RPGs association with that word, RPGs are stuck with it. RPG = Role Playing GAME. It has always been about gaming. Throwing dice, beating the odds, having fun, being with friends, creating memories. Calling it a game only restricts it in YOUR mind. It IS a game. Games are part of human existance. They will be as long as we have free time and friends to play with.

 

[mmadsen]

DnD supports all styles of play. I challenge you to prove otherwise. Rule 0 makes this possible, at least, for DnD.

Then D&D supports all styles of play to the extent that Advanced Third Reich (plus Rule 0) does. Or to the extent that an empty journal does. It supports any style of play -- just add or subtract all the rules you need yourself!

We can all pare down the rules and have rules lite game.

Those of us who have played RPGs and other games for a long time, and who have an inclination toward game design, may go through the effort to refine a game -- some of us find that fun -- but that's hardly the way to get new players into the hobby.

There are plenty if tidbits in the core books to provide a catalyst for our imagination. Reading the monster entries in the Monster Manual, reading about the Races and the Deities in the Players Handbook, all provide inspiration to fuel the imagination. If that wasn't enough, there are novels, movies, PC games, console games, and heck, REAL LIFE. All these can provide myriad inspirations to those who let them.

Although "there are plenty if tidbits in the core books to provide a catalyst for our imagination," that doesn't mean that a product couldn't fit more hooks into less space, in a more approachable way. After all, the old Basic Set fit almost as much inspiration into a very thin book.

 

[Staffan]

I am in 100% agreement here. Prices have been going through the roof with no end in site. Point in case, AEG's $100 dollar super-dungeon.

Note: this is mainly due to something called inflation. So, the PHB cost $12 back in 1980. According to the inflation calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ , $12 in 1980 is worth $28.55 in 2002 (as far as it goes). So, the PHB is in real terms about a dollar and a half more expensive than in 1980. It is also about twice as big, and is done in full color. I think that's worth a buck-and-a-half.

One thing that has happened is that the market as a whole has moved more toward big, expensive books rather than small, cheap ones, but I don't think it's an issue of the books not being worth the price charged (looking solely on physical quality and not quality of contents - I'm sure there are a couple of crap books out there).

 

[teitan]

Yeah, but who is complaining about the price of the core rules here? D&D always had a higher up front than any game and the current core rules prices are comparable to the 2E rulebooks. What we are talking about is the prices on various supplements, adventures and sourcebooks. Does Dragonlance Campaign Setting need to be 40 dollars with a page count less than the core rules, no bound in map and the bargain bin artwork? Does EVERY book have to be hardbound? How about Monsters of Faerun and its huge price tag for its size? Do you realize that the War of the Lance SB is going to be 45 dollars for 224 (maybe more, but prolly not much) pages just because it has a map in it? What is the breaking point?

There was a time when I could walk into the comic shop and walk out with 2 supplements for the price of one these days and I am talking around 4 years ago! Full colour is nice but do you have to gouge me on it? Is it really that important? White Wolf is still a B&W company and the lack of colour doesn't seem to harming their sales one little bit.

RPGs are like comic books, they are starting to get priced outside the range of the casual consumer when compared to the perceived value of the product. White Wolf has maintained a nice, even price range on their sourcebooks etc. so why can't anyone else?

Look at the SPycraft books, or any AEG book. The price per page is ridiculous, even with the high quality binding, if I wanted to follow an AEG line I would be spending twice as much as I would have 4 years ago.

Go ahead and compare prices of the core rules but man, start comparing prices on sourcebooks and then tell me the prices are right...

Jason

 

[Bendris Noulg]

seems to me that what he wants is for RPGs to be more inclusive of the types of people he likes, and more exclusive of the types of people he doesn't like. seems that right now, it's the types of people he doesn't like that he's encountering in RPGs.

that's a really bad strategy, IMO. most products do not suddenly grab huge new audiences by changing so much that they alienate numbers of their loyal fans.

3E did.

 

[jgbrowning]

Go ahead and compare prices of the core rules but man, start comparing prices on sourcebooks and then tell me the prices are right...

Jason

The reason why prices are up is because volume is down. As a publisher, it makes more sense to sell fewer, more-expensive products when you know that you can't price-break yourself into greater profit. In otherwords, lowering prices isn't going to increase profit (even with the slightly greater number of sales that will accrue) when compared to profit from lesser selling, higher-priced books.

At least, this is my understanding of the current situation.

joe b.

 

[mythusmage]

You Go Away For a Day

This thread has certainly gotten away from me. So it looks like I have start a new thread to answer the concerns raised here. Look for it under the heading of, Reinventing Roleplaying Games. Which will be cross-posted to a new blog under the same name.

Here's a preview...

Perhaps the biggest barrier to changing perceptions lies in the hobby's name, Roleplaying Games. Games about roleplaying. When most people hear the word 'games' they tend to think of games such as chess, parcheesi, or Clue®. Exercises that rely on game balancing through rules design. Games that must provide a fair chance at victory. Something RPGs needn't do.

You could say that RPGs are not games. Not as most understand them. They have game-like elements, they can be 'gamed'—as so much of life is, but are not, strictly speaking, games. But since they are called games people get the wrong impression, including many who design RPGs. Thus we have RPGs that are more game than roleplaying.

So here you have my proposal, that we rename the hobby. To something more in keeping with what it is we're actually doing. The Roleplaying Hobby (RPH). Each game would then become not a game, but a set of instructions for roleplaying in a particular setting or set of settings. They would no longer be games per se but instructions, guidelines, bibles if you would, for assuming a role in an imaginary world.

I'll be reposting this in the new thread. Please save your replies for that. Thank you.

 

[scott-fs]

Look at the SPycraft books, or any AEG book. The price per page is ridiculous, even with the high quality binding, if I wanted to follow an AEG line I would be spending twice as much as I would have 4 years ago.

It's interesting. A few months ago I got into HarnWorld/Master. A world/system that's been around for 20 years or so, and the current HarnMaster is in 3rd edition right now.

What I've found interesting is that the core "book" for Harnmaster comes in about 6.25 cents per page (160pp for $10 if you go HM-lite). While you still need Magic and Religon to have a complete system, it is still a very good price. Supplements on the other hand weigh in at about 50 cents per page (or $1 per sheet).

How Harnmaster is organized is in a series of articles. These are printed on looseleaf sheets, intended to go strait into a binder (much like the 2e Monstrous Compendium Appendices IIRC). Overall, I much prefer this form of organization. There is no binding, no hardcovers or softcovers. You'd think that supplemental articles would cost alot less, and that there might be consumer backlash, but quite the opposite in the Harnic community.

Even though the products I've purchased so far have been expensive ($30 for 72 pages (for HarnMaster Magic) and 88 pages (for HarnMaster Religion) for instance), they have been so much more worth it. There is very little d20 that really interests me anymore, but I'll be purchasing as much Harn as my budget will allow. Harn product isn't in stores, so you have to go to Columbia Game's website to order. That really is the only downside to it.