Why should I care about the FLGS?

[woodelf]

You have a complaint about your LGS staff and their gaming knowledge, try hitting a Barnes & Noble sometime......ask them what they think of the 3e/3.5 debate, or if they think Eberron will suck as hard as it seems, heck, tell them about how your character saved the party last night by rolling 3 nat 20s in a row and killing the giant cheif. After they escort you from the store with security, let me know how much fun that was.

huh. i keep hearing this. Do most Barnes & Nobles stock RPGs? 'Cause the local one sure doesn't, and they made a big deal when it opened (probably about 6 years ago) that it was the biggest Barnes & Noble store in the U.S. (presumably by square footage) to date, so i don't think it's because they don't have room. I might actually shop there if they had RPGs--but probably not. I prefer Borders when the independents can't get me what i want (which is pretty rarely).

 

[Hypersmurf]

If they are worried about theft then they could put tags on the books and put up tag detectors at the entrances and exits. Borders, Barnes and Noble and the other chain stores do this. So do a lot of small boutiques at the mall so it can't be that expensive.

-Hyp.

 

[dravot]

huh. i keep hearing this. Do most Barnes & Nobles stock RPGs? 'Cause the local one sure doesn't, and they made a big deal when it opened (probably about 6 years ago) that it was the biggest Barnes & Noble store in the U.S. (presumably by square footage) to date, so i don't think it's because they don't have room. I might actually shop there if they had RPGs--but probably not. I prefer Borders when the independents can't get me what i want (which is pretty rarely).

Of the B&Ns that I frequent, several have a couple of RPG books, maybe from 4-10 items total. I'd hate to have to rely on them for RPG materials.

 

[3catcircus]

Sorry, but I couldn't let this one stand. In our industry, the retailer buys the games at 30 to 50% off MSRP, depending on manufacturer, size of order, payment terms, and distributor terms. Monster retailers like Amazon or Wal*Mart buy at less than what our distributors can. Marrking things down to 1/2 price means not covering shipping costs at best, selling at less than cost at worst. If something is marked down that much, it means clearance to cut losses.

Well - I guess then this industry doesn't understand the basics of retail markup.

Recall: Mark-up = 1-(cost /price) the result is a percentage

You can then use this to determine how much markup you need to make profit - *and* - also to determine how much profit you want to make. The average retail markup for most industries is 30%. If you are telling me that the average rpg retailer is not doing this, then there will always be a problem with the rpg industry.

 

[3catcircus]

The market doesn't work that way, as I understand it. The distributor gets the item at a significant discount, and then sells it to the retailer at less of a discount, getting his profit from the difference. The retailer, in turn, sells the item at MSRP or possibly at a discount of up to 10%, generally. No one is seeing huge profit margins in that equation. Amazon and Walmart can give big discounts because they buy in huge volumes that no one except a distributor like Diamond can even approach...and even they can get that close.

If you've got a retailer who's charging 5x over the price being charged by the publisher to the distributor, or even the retailer...there's something very wrong there. I know that Wulf Ratbane has posted some details on the economics of RPG books, and no one would be charging even as much as you think they are. Infrastructure to print, store, ship and distribute those books costs money. Do you think that anything over the price the publisher charges is cheating you?

Actually - there is nothing wrong with a retailer charging 5x over the price they have paid (see my other post re: retail markup). However, there *is* something wrong with them charging a huge markup instead of a reasonable markup.

Yes, but let's be fair here: paper is much more expensive than it used to be, was b/w throughout, and was the product of a single author who often operated in the danger zone, prior to having a break-out hit on his hands, and who's business dealings certainly had their fair share of difficulties.

Is paper really more expensive, given advances in paper-making? Are costs really more expensive? I don't think so. Before - if you wanted to publish a book you either needed your own expensive press or pay someone to do it for you, using an expensive press. Now anyone can publish a book with a small investment in Adobe and/or Quark products.

Setting aside the fact that RPGs and cars are radically different, I think you're completely ignoring the concept of scarcity. Take a good long look at ebay, and I think you'll find that not everyone agrees with you, on that point.

How are they different? They are both consumer products that are in demand. I didn't ignore the concept of scarcity - rather - I insinuated the concept of false scarcity. For an example - why do most Oriental Adventures Boxed Sets go for a higher price than other FR boxed sets? The reason is because sellers had grossly overstated the rarity of the product. Fact of the matter is that neither cars nor books are scarce. In the case of rpg books, I think it is a matter of trying to compete with a smaller creative and editorial staff and less capital than in the past - each product is as risky as the last one.

In the case of cars, the prices are so high because the marketing industry has done an outstanding job of convincing people that $1000 worth of material and labor is worth $20,000+, as well as the fact that labor costs have skyrocketed (at least in the US) due to the labor unions forcing manufacturers to pay unskilled assembly-line workers $30+/hr. This is why Kia, Hyundai and Daewoo are less expensive - labor is much cheaper. Japanese cars *used* to be extremely affordable - their prices have risen as a result of an increased standard of living back in Japan - mostly due to the post-war US support of their industries and the fact that Japanese automakers products are of such good quality that people are willing to pay premium prices (anyone old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" meant junk?)

 

[Mark]

huh. i keep hearing this. Do most Barnes & Nobles stock RPGs? 'Cause the local one sure doesn't, and they made a big deal when it opened (probably about 6 years ago) that it was the biggest Barnes & Noble store in the U.S. (presumably by square footage) to date, so i don't think it's because they don't have room. I might actually shop there if they had RPGs--but probably not. I prefer Borders when the independents can't get me what i want (which is pretty rarely).

Every B&N I have chanced to stop in has carried at least some RPG books.

Edit - My bad. The big store downtown I was thinking of is a Borders, not a B&N.

Of course, I don't shop there for RPGs because I have a better-than-FLGS that I support...

 

[Mark]

Well - I guess then this industry doesn't understand the basics of retail markup.

Recall: Mark-up = 1-(cost /price) the result is a percentage

You can then use this to determine how much markup you need to make profit - *and* - also to determine how much profit you want to make. The average retail markup for most industries is 30%. If you are telling me that the average rpg retailer is not doing this, then there will always be a problem with the rpg industry.

thalmin is a co-owner of one of the largest gamestores in the country that has been in business for a couple of decades or more. He's been a personal friend of mine for a few years and I have no doubt he knows a bit about what he is doing. I'm not sure how much of the details of his business he'll wish to divulge on a publicly-read message board but I'll take his word on whatever he deems acceptable to share.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Oy vey. Am I turning into The Man?

Much as I hate to be The Man, I gotta say:

The Man's Notes: Political discussion is not tolerated on this board. That means no discussions here about the merits of capitalism, the merits of China's government, the merits of Wal-Mart, or the lack of merits of any of the above.

If you can't discuss your FLGS without bringing these issues in, why, there are hundreds of other threads you can contribute to. If you persist in bringing these issues in, then you'll make me unhappy and you'll get the thread locked.

Clear?
Daniel

I think we've all agreed on that already Dan Reason why some of us offered other avenues for it and tried to steer it away from the politics. Although it is hard to keep certain politics out of a conversation like this, I think most of us have been doing a good job and am proud of it. We may make a single political statement, but then when we realize that it is what it is we back off. I find that impressive in a topic like this and would like to give kudos to everyone on the thread.

 

[Kastil]

The problem I'm finding is (even at the gaming store my husband and I hit on vacation) is they don't have the item we're looking for. Sure, they can order it but why order it there and have to go back in when finally comes in? I can go online and have them deliver it straight to my door.

I'm shopping for convenience and with a son who plays hockey, I have to pinch the pennies where I can. Boy grows too fast and skates aren't cheap!

 

[Glyfair]

On the other hand, I've met more people, played more games, and made more friendships on online forums than I ever have in a game store. I believe that without the LGS's, the network of gamers will not simply wither and die; it will move to where I've been seeing it move for the past 7 years - online.

I don't think it will die, but I do think it will wither. While I agree that online is a great place to game, meet people to game with, etc., it is not a great place to create gamers. Usually, someone has to see gaming somewhere. I think the two largest areas are schools and gaming stores (and very often the combination). Take the gaming stores out of that mix and you reduce the number of potential players. That leads to a withering of people gaming.