Why Should It Be Hard To Be A Paladin?

[Desdichado]

CSI and D&D aren't yea dark ole days.

Certainly not. It's the good old days where characters where Good, and went out and kicked Evil's butt because it was there, and it was the right thing to do. All of this modern moralizing about good vs. evil is missing the point of D&D in large part, IMO.

Feel free to play it as you wish, of course, but don't expect everyone to agree with you.

 

[Rel]

Murder

1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).


Emphasis mine.

I'm not saying that snipers are cold-blooded killers, or that they aren't good, but there is a reason snipers are a last resort. Same with the paladin; they have the training and the authority (in most cases) to use nessecary force. Out right murder (running in and slaying all in the area because some are evil) should be a last resort option.

So are you or are you not calling that murder? If not then I fail to see any comparison with how a Paladin acts.

If the Paladin walks up to the bad guy thinking, "If this guy threatens to put an innocent in harm's way, I'm going to kill him." then he's premeditating it. But it sure as hell isn't murder.

 

[Sejs]

Even swat isn't allowed to mow down a room full of civilians for one bank robber.

Granted, but that's not the issue being discussed. No one's saying 'graar, there's one evil guy in the inn - kill everyone inside'.

I think we're going to have to renew the analogy if we want to keep on using it. It's getting stretched nearly to the point of snapping.

Even outright murder (snipers and other actions) are last resorts for police (follow typical reports, not what you see on the news or tv shows).

Nitpick:

Murder is by definition unlawful killing. Thus a state execution isn't murder, a police sniper performing their function isn't murder, and so on. Killing, but not murder. You're right on the last resort issue, but they arn't murderers.

 

[Henry]

What, you never watch old westerns (epsecially Gunsmoke)? Lots of fun, and prisoners are taken to jail a large amount of the time. Heck, unless one of them has high str or Escape Artist (how many npc thugs do), you can manacle/tie up the prisoners and hand wave the rest.

'The paladin picks up his amulet of sending, criminals manacled after being caught selling Thayen wackyweed. "Alright boys, come and pick up the garbage." '

Actually, I tend to remember a LOT of those old westerns where the bad guys were gunned down in the middle of nefarious action, and not just on the PCs. John Wayne did an awful lot of killing for a law-dog.

 

[Desdichado]

Justified in suspicion, yes. He'd still need proof that they're the brigands.

Look at it from my point of view (working security). I can see kids or suspicious individuals on a property. I can guess that they are up to no good. If I had detect evil, some would probably blind me. But until they do something that proves intent I can't just detain them and tell the cops 'he looked mean'. Even if I KNOW they're going to do something, I can't take action beyond calling for back-up just in case.

No, he doesn't need proof. That's a relatively modern conceit, not a universal.

Not only that, with the wide variety of spells that would prove guilt fairly easily, it's a moot point anyway.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Just while ago I was blowing the leaves off the deck when I was suddenly struck by the core reason why I feel the way I do about Paladins and gaming in general. It's that gaming is a hobby of mine and I expect my hobbies to provide a break from the stresses of everyday life. I expect the game to be full of action and adventure and excitement. Sure there will be hard choices and challenges.

But I have no intention of running or playing a game that is all about being caught up in a bunch of beurocratic red tape and having to jump through a lot of hoops in order to fulfill your vow as a Paladin. Especially if doing so makes the game drag not just for the Paladin player but for everybody else as well.

Maybe I'm just not very creative but I simply cannot think of a way to make the game fun with the party constantly having to schlep back to town with another load of prisoners to turn over to the local church or constabulary for redemption.

I had a pally that was always thinking he had to do that, we finally came to the consensus that he was empowered to dispense justice and medieval justice wasn't just a slap on the wrist.

 

[Sejs]

Actually, I tend to remember a LOT of those old westerns where the bad guys were gunned down in the middle of nefarious action, and not just on the PCs. John Wayne did an awful lot of killing for a law-dog.

Er, yeah, seconded. I remember a lot of shoot outs, not so many "take 'em away, boys".
Jail was maybe one or two cells in the back of the sherrif's office, and was either a place someone spent a few days in to cool off, or got to languish in before they were hanged.

 

[delericho]

No, he doesn't need proof. That's a relatively modern conceit, not a universal.

Bear in mind that the average adventuring party have a brigand-ish look to them, and spend a lot of time wandering in the lawless parts of the world. That being the case, would a wandering Paladin be justified in ambushing your PCs as they travel on their way to the dungeon?

 

[Storyteller01]

So are you or are you not calling that murder? If not then I fail to see any comparison with how a Paladin acts.

I would say that it is.

If the Paladin walks up to the bad guy thinking, "If this guy threatens to put an innocent in harm's way, I'm going to kill him." then he's premeditating it. But it sure as hell isn't murder.

It's not the same. A sniper has 'this guy's been talked to, they tried to reason with him, he's not listening, and he's going to kill someone. If we don't do something now someone will die in the next few minutes. All other options have been attempted.' It's premeditated but justified in the regard that no other option was left.

 

[Storyteller01]

Er, yeah, seconded. I remember a lot of shoot outs, not so many "take 'em away, boys".
Jail was maybe one or two cells in the back of the sherrif's office, and was either a place someone spent a few days in to cool off, or got to languish in before they were hanged.

Yep, I remember th e shoot outs. I also remember the bad guys shooting first, and more than a few episodes involving the sheriff either bringing someone in or taking them to the judge in the next town.

My grandmother loved these things. Ended up watching them just before the soaps. Scary thought, mixing Erica Cain with rifles...