Why Should It Be Hard To Be A Paladin?

[Storyteller01]

But the Paladin is not required by the RAW to always be right. He is only required to not be Chaotic or Evil on purpose.

No, he's required not to be chaotic or evil at all. At worst, their actions should never exceed neutral, and they shouldn't do that too often.

The fact that a certain act would normally be considered Chaotic or Evil in light of full and complete information, does not mean the same act is necessarily Chaotic or Evil when made based on a reasonable guess from incomplete information with honest intentions.

Honest intentions and a nickel will get you a stick of gum.

You claim that the RW allows such leniancy, but ignore examples to the contrary.

In a society where actions they take can have the backing of resources that exceed our own, why do we stick with the idea that they are somehow less able to make a desicion, or are anyway less responsible for that decision? Science in the BC era discovered ethics and innovations without tech or magic. Why are those in a D&D games suddenly so deficient?

 

[Storyteller01]

There is also a huge double-standard when it comes RPing alignments.

I hold the same standard to clerics as I do for paladins. It's why very few play lawful good anything if it gains its power from a god. Can't say I like it, but they prefer to have the freedom.

EDIT: We go have a LG member in the group. He's not a paladin or cleric, but he takes an even bigger risk. Per his race, if he commits an evil act he begins losing levels. This continues until he saves, dies, or chooses to be come evil. He's done well so far, and understood the risks when he chose to play it.

 

[Storyteller01]

Of course. We happen to widely disagree what constitutes a reasonable definition of "willful negligence" in the context of a D&D campaign.

That's because it isn't codified, and to be honest shouldn't be. This, like gravity, is assumed to be understood or at least agreed upon by its players.

And claiming the world is rough and tumble doesn't cut it for the standard D&D game, or similar settings such as Forgotten Realms. Magic it too common and its capabilities too all encompassing to say 'Well, it's the dark ages. Those poor superstition folks just didn't know no better...'.

 

[Storyteller01]

If we want to continue the metaphor, both agencies are allowed a degree of leeway in the persuit of their duty, and particularly the military within the idea of acceptable civilian losses. You don't go out of your way to incur them, but if they happen.. well, sorry, the job is necessary but it isn't pretty.

I guess really it boils down to the question of: does a paladin have to be Practically Perfect in Every Way (tm), or are they allowed to be human and screw up occasionally, just so long as their intentions were right?

Agreed, but the military isn't what could be called a good organization. Lawful, but not good.

As for police, either the system can't deal with all corruption or said system puts the hurt on an officer who killed a civilian in the line of duty. Most are investigated throughly. Even swat isn't allowed to mow down a room full of civilians for one bank robber.

Even outright murder (snipers and other actions) are last resorts for police (follow typical reports, not what you see on the news or tv shows).

 

[Storyteller01]

So Paladins who cannot cast Detect Lies are not really Paladins? Do they get to use a completely different Code? And who can trust Detect Lies to determine the truth anyway with its 13-15 DC?

To even attempt what you are suggesting to the degree you are suggesting requires no less than Divination. So I guess Paladins who happen to be unable to cast Divination cannot really be Paladins? Or must they befriend Clerics who will cast 4th level spells for them for free?

If the cleric follows the same god and code to support justice and protect the innocents, why wouldn't he cast it for free? You expect the cleric in the group to heal you for free, don't you?

And I'm not saying that you can't be a paladin without divination or detect lies (which can be highented like any ther spell), I'm saying you can't go around indiscriminately killing folks because they ping your DE. Use your int, figure out what's being done, and take the appropriate actions.

-If they're neutral evil but haven't actually killed anyone (NE denoted selfishness and a willingness to kill folks who get in their way; it doesn't mean they have yet) warrant a paladin running them through? Does every pick pocket or street tough warrant the death penalty?

-If a diplomat is LE but hasn't used his connections to commit murder (fraud, blackmail, kidnapping all fall under this alignment. Being LE doesn't mean they've killed someone), does the paladin run hs horse through the diplomat's courtyard seeking to reap bloody vengance?

 

[Rel]

Just while ago I was blowing the leaves off the deck when I was suddenly struck by the core reason why I feel the way I do about Paladins and gaming in general. It's that gaming is a hobby of mine and I expect my hobbies to provide a break from the stresses of everyday life. I expect the game to be full of action and adventure and excitement. Sure there will be hard choices and challenges.

But I have no intention of running or playing a game that is all about being caught up in a bunch of beurocratic red tape and having to jump through a lot of hoops in order to fulfill your vow as a Paladin. Especially if doing so makes the game drag not just for the Paladin player but for everybody else as well.

Maybe I'm just not very creative but I simply cannot think of a way to make the game fun with the party constantly having to schlep back to town with another load of prisoners to turn over to the local church or constabulary for redemption.

 

[Rel]

Even outright murder (snipers and other actions) are last resorts for police (follow typical reports, not what you see on the news or tv shows).

If you consider a police sniper to be a murderer then I definately have nothing further to discuss with you on the matter of Paladins.

 

[Storyteller01]

If you consider a police sniper to be a murderer then I definately have nothing further to discuss with you on the matter of Paladins.

Murder

1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).


Emphasis mine.

I'm not saying that snipers are cold-blooded killers, or that they aren't good, but there is a reason snipers are a last resort. Same with the paladin; they have the training and the authority (in most cases) to use nessecary force. Out right murder (running in and slaying all in the area because some are evil) should be a last resort option.

 

[delericho]

But I have no intention of running or playing a game that is all about being caught up in a bunch of beurocratic red tape and having to jump through a lot of hoops in order to fulfill your vow as a Paladin. Especially if doing so makes the game drag not just for the Paladin player but for everybody else as well.

Amen to that.

 

[Storyteller01]

Maybe I'm just not very creative but I simply cannot think of a way to make the game fun with the party constantly having to schlep back to town with another load of prisoners to turn over to the local church or constabulary for redemption.

What, you never watch old westerns (epsecially Gunsmoke)? Lots of fun, and prisoners are taken to jail a large amount of the time. Heck, unless one of them has high str or Escape Artist (how many npc thugs do), you can manacle/tie up the prisoners and hand wave the rest.

'The paladin picks up his amulet of sending, criminals manacled after being caught selling Thayen wackyweed. "Alright boys, come and pick up the garbage." '