Why Shouldn't I Ban "Come and Get It"?

[GoLu]

I expect players to "buy in" to the rules of the universe as expressed through the rules of the game.

So collect players that give you that buy in and don't mind having fighter powers used on their character and can deal with the descriptions of those powers without it shattering their suspension of disbelief and ruining their game experience.

My advice was more for people that had players that could buy in to 99.9% of the game, but that remaining tenth of a percent was trouble. If you want to play with those people, work it out ahead of time and everyone will be happier.

Basically, my advice boils down to "talk to people ahead of time and then do what's fun". Or it should. I hope I haven't totally miscommunicated that.

 

[Nifft]

Others have said it, I'm just repeating:

You shouldn't ban it because it's cool.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, but if that sort of thing has been done to you before, then you think you might be wise to it.

Shure, which is one reason it's not an at-will, it won't keep working over and over.

It's not just one trick, either, it's any trick or tactic or bit of heroic effort or whatever that might be visualized to bring you into melee with a set of nearby enemies.

Plus, the game is about the PCs, so when an enemy falls for this, he's usually not around to fall for it again, later.

Honestly, I am somewhat tempted to make it a Strength vs. Will with a secondary attack. I am worried that would make it too weak, however.

That would weaken it a lot. OTOH, if you make it STR vs WILL and on a hit inflict damage and move them - or, rather, move them and inflict damage, it'd actually be slightly more powerful - and very welcome, since few exploits go against anything other than AC.

In short, I don't mind tricking people, that's good stuff even on PCs, but making the trick automatically work when it goes against the very nature of a class/target (like a wizard) is a bit odd.

Quite a few things automatically work in 4e. Sleep slows everyone in the radius, even if you miss, for instance, and plenty of monster powers work the first round, then you get to save. And, plenty of other powers move people around or bestow status conditions as an effect or on a miss. So, if that's odd, a lot of things are odd.

Again, you can think of it as something that doesn't always work, it's just rather than rolling to see if it works, the player gets to choose the one time he really wants it to work. Think of the fighter pulling similar tricks quite often, just, most of the time, they don't work. Then, when he really needs it, he makes the extra effort or fate smiles on him or whatever.

I know that creates a sense of distance for the player - he's not just playing his PC, he has special knowlege of/control over the fate of his character that isn't IC. There's always at least a little of that in any game, sometimes it feels like 'metagaming' but sometimes it's just good for modeling a dramatic/heroic/cinematic genre to give a character an ability that is dicey and doesn't work often, from his point of view, but, from the player's point of view, is just limitted to once/day.

 

[Marnak]

Note also that it's entirely possible that some enemies won't be affected by the attack.

How?

Only enemies that can end adjacent to the fighter move. The DM decides what order enemies move in. He's entirely justified to have all the minions/soldiers/brutes charge in first and leave no room for the artillery/lurkers to end adjacent to the Fighter.

This is a good point and one I will think about some more. It may solve most of the exceptions that are bothering me.

 

[Marnak]

Others have said it, I'm just repeating:

You shouldn't ban it because it's cool.

Cheers, -- N

I am definitely not going to ban it now. In my own head, the debate has moved on to whether or not I house rule that it requires some kind of attack to get the enemies to move or make some enemies immune. The competing house rules in my head are as follows:

Something vs. Will (maybe Strength or Wisdom or Charisma)

Or

Lurkers, Controllers, and enemies with level higher than character using exploit are immune.

 

[Aenghus]

A few issues here.

First, some of the fighter powers need to be powerful for the class to be balanced with other classes, in a way that they weren't in previous editions, including powers that would have to be supernatural effects. "Come and get it" is an outlier power that requires an open mind and player/DM interpretation to maintain some sort of versimilitude. Still its a very action movie power, that may not suit some campaigns.

Second, even with my limited experience of playing and running 4e, I'm impressed with the ability of the fighter class to shut down the monsters they are marking. So much so that as a DM I am tempted to have particular monsters avoid them specifically to avoid being marked, which is in effect metagaming. This is difficult to totally avoid, and obviously a source of potential annoyance for players of fighters, who are a little nerfed if monsters avoid them, or never provoke a combat challenge or OA.

The "Come and get it" power allows a fighter to draw monsters to him, and take the burden of metagaming off the DMs hands to an extent.

I don't mind the cinematic nature of some of the 4e powers - its a consequence of trying to balance spellcasters and non-spellcasters, something that I approve of in general.

 

[Hypersmurf]

One other thing to consider - sure, the mechanics of the power are "the enemy shifts" and not "the fighter pulls". But that doesn't mean you can't cinematically describe the event in the same way you would if it said "the fighter pulls". Just as, above, someone suggested that all-the-minions-surround-the-fighter can be cinematically represented by the-fighter-jumps-among-the-minions, we can represent the-enemy-moves-to-the-fighter with the-fighter-pulls-the-enemy-close.

Why would the two wizards run up to the fighter instead of hanging back? Because he bent down, yanked at the rug they're standing on, and smacked them as they came flying forward. Because he cut the rope holding up the chandelier, and when they dived out of the way, towards the fighter was the quickest escape. Because he kicked the bench and sent it sliding along the floor to smash into their shins, sending them tumbling forward.

-Hyp.

 

[Maximillian]

Rogue 9: Deadly Positioning
Warlord 22: Own the Battlefield
Iron Vanguard 12: Inexorable Shift

Thanks, this requires a shift in my understanding of these powers. So much to re-learn...

 

[Crazy Jerome]

If you want to limit it to the "false opening" rationale, say that it only works on targets that have a (proficient) melee attack option that would tempt them into running up in the first place. Never mind the wimpy wizard that plans to attack with his magic missle from as far away as possible. Why should a character holding a bow be tempted by this? If a target can be tempted into a possible melee attack, they will shift. If they don't, they won't.

OTOH, you could also say that any target without an appropriate melee attack that the fighter wants to include, must be explained by some narration by the fighter, along the lines that others are saying.

 

[Marnak]

Aenghus, Hypersmurf, and Crazy Jerome all bring up very good points, ones that are helping me wrap my head around these cinematic 4e moves. I have no problem with, and enjoy, most of them, but some require more thinking and better DM explaining than I normally do when I am trying to run a dozen enemies, explain the rules to players new to 4e, etc. I have appreciated all the constructive feedback on the poll. Nice thinking and good ideas by a lot of people. Thanks!

Marnak