Why so little D20 Modern Support?

[Dana_Jorgensen]

I am begining to wonder why there is so little D20 Modern support from large game companies. Sure, fans are creating sites and there are a few D20 modern .pdf games but the amount of print material for D20 Modern has been.. well lacking.

Any idea why this is?

In my case, its a matter of what's appropriate. My flagship line, Big Bang: The Mostly Illustrated RPG Guide to Modern Weapons, is simply best suited for the PDF market, since it was designed like the old Monstrous compendium from TSR or the Hazardous Materials fact sheets developed by OSHA. I want to see it in print, but for nearly a year, I have been searching for a way to put it out in the most appropriate fashion. Unfortunately, even amongst the consumers who do want it in print, I get zero feedback on how they'd like to see it produced, which leaves me in the lurch, holding a very expensive grab bag of guesses.

That aside, it has only been recently that I've started working on D20M products that are suited for print. The first of these, Lost Destinations: West Milford, will be available around September or so, with at least two more books by the end of the year (including the book I just announced an open call for and hopefully Big Bang joining them in some fashion by then, as well)

 

[Aaron2]

I also think the D20 Modern class system is perfect for D&D4, start with 4 basic classes (warrior, expert, adept and acolyte) and then use the PHB classes as Advanced classes and then integrate Prestige CLasses. That would better emulate the idea you are a beginning hero in D&D.

For me, the Basic/Advanced classes structure is the biggest knock against d20M. I mean, what is so magical about 4th level? If "beginning" adventurers are first level, what level are city guards? If guards are all 4th level (with 25hps!) that throws off weapon damage, especially for firearms. To be fair, I have the same problem with Prestige classes in D&D. Why 6th level? Some guy just pulled a level number out of his butt and now everyone is stuck with it. It should be the DM's (or setting developer's) descision which level is "beginner" and which is "experienced", not hard coded into the system.

Back to the topic, d20 Modern probably suffers the most because it took so long before it was released. By then, setting that could probably have been d20M (T20, Judge Dredd, d20 Afganistan, Spycraft, etc) were already released and established. Now d20 Future is released as d20M but in direct competition with the Star Wars RPG. That makes no sense.


Aaron

 

[takyris]

I think one good-news-bad-news deal with d20 Modern has been the fact that it covered, at least at a 10,000-foot level, a wide enough range of stuff that it's sometimes tough to convince people that new supplements need to be developed. As somebody who owns the core book and nothing else, I'm a tough sell on new hard-and-fast rules unless it perfectly suits a campaign I know I want to run. Sure, somebody could come up with great expanded driving rules that make it perfectly feasible to play a rules-intense version of "The Dukes of Hazzard" or "Pole Position", but I don't do that much driving in my games, at least not in a rules-intense way. My games have combat, yeah, but not a ton of specifically martial-arts action, so I don't need any of the (some of them very well done) martial arts handbooks. "CSI"? I've made up a few house rule additions in order to make things more interesting than just Search and Investigate, but I'm happy with what I've got. I don't see a need for more.

The designers seemed to be trying for a GURPS-like effect in giving "A game that can do any modern setting pretty well", and from what I've seen in my games, they've done it (in my own personal subjective opinion only). That's the good news. The bad news is that they've done it well enough that, most of the time, I don't feel a huge need to buy additional supplements. Even I realize that the game won't survive unless people continue to make money from it, so I ought to buy some stuff just to show the market that d20M is a good game... but I never get around to doing so. Which means that even though d20M is pretty much "The Game I Play" right now, my own choices could be hurting the future of that game.

If that makes any sense.

 

[Vigilance]

A publisher is going to go for option (a) everytime even if you think D20 Modern is a better rule system, using it is commercial suicide.

I couldn't disagree with this sentiment more (if I am reading you right).

You seem to be saying that D&D has a much larger potential market than d20 Modern (true). Then you take what seems like a small and logical step to say everyone should use D&D's engine to tap that market.

While this seems true at first blush it isn't the reality of the marketplace. The reason is that you are only looking at the demand side of the equation. Sales at their most basic level depend on demand but also supply.

When we at RPGO make a d20 modern book it has a smaller market. It also has a whole lot less competition.

Chuck

 

[Vigilance]

I think one good-news-bad-news deal with d20 Modern has been the fact that it covered, at least at a 10,000-foot level, a wide enough range of stuff that it's sometimes tough to convince people that new supplements need to be developed.

I both agree and disagree with this statement.

d20 Modern does cover a lot of ground. A whole lotta ground, which is one reason why I consider it one of the best designed games I have ever run across (which has a lot more to do with my writing so many books for it than any perceived financial advantage).

However I think every book I've written for the game covers areas that could have been covered more in depth if the designers had had more space. So to give a concrete example, the abstract wealth system coupled with Requisition rules was a very nice touch that the game didn't really seem to need the first time I read it.

When I sat down to write a book about the military however, those rules provided a very nice infrastructure for me to build on when looking at military requisitioning.

Fortunately for me, however, (turning back to a financial side) there are very few core rule only diehards out there and the feedback I get has (with an exception or two) asked why I can't write books at a faster pace rather than expressing the "why bother" sentiment.

Chuck

 

[SSquirrel]

Too bad that White Wolf decided against d20 Modern for its Adventure! d20 [and its forthcoming companion games]. Sounds like Masque of the Red Death d20 will also use D&D rather than d20 Modern.

Technically speaking they did borrow from the d20M SRD as well as the 3.5 SRD. They're both listed in the product.

Hagen

 

[buzz]

It should be the DM's (or setting developer's) descision which level is "beginner" and which is "experienced", not hard coded into the system.

At least when it comes to Prestige Classes, it *is* the DM's/developer's decision. There are plenty for which a PC will qualify sooner or later than 6th level. Advanced Classes from d20M are somewhat similar, at least in that some Basic Class combos will attain them sooner than others.

As for "beginner" PrCs... that's what base classes are for.

Now d20 Future is released as d20M but in direct competition with the Star Wars RPG. That makes no sense.

I don't really think that d20F is in any way competition for SWd20. I mean, you're talking about an RPG with earth's most popular license attached to it. If anything, I think that d20F is sort of aimed at gamers who want a d20 SFRPG that *isn't* Star Wars. At least, that's part of its appeal to me.

(And, FWIW, I think that SWd20 works just fine as-is, and doesn't really need to be reworked into a d20M-based game.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The ruleset is pretty complete (I don't really need supplements, and I can always steal non-technology rules from DnD), but I'm looking for adventures.

There aren't many of them, and most of the ones I've found have lots of FX in them.

PS I'm a huge supporter of the base/advanced class formula. I hate it when two nobles look exactly alike and have the exact same class abilities...

 

[takyris]

Fortunately for me, however, (turning back to a financial side) there are very few core rule only diehards out there and the feedback I get has (with an exception or two) asked why I can't write books at a faster pace rather than expressing the "why bother" sentiment.

As one of the (apparently) core-rules diehards, I'm really glad that you're writing stuff, and I'm really glad it's selling.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Now d20 Future is released as d20M but in direct competition with the Star Wars RPG. That makes no sense.

Let me assure you that d20 Future won't be in competition with Star Wars d20. While there are a few places where there is a little bit of crossover (as in, they both have things like energy weapons and space ships and such) you won't have to worry about people suddenly abandoning one system for the other.

Once it gets closer to launch time for d20 Future you'll see what I mean. We should be able to elaborate more by then.