why the attraction to "low magic"?

[Belegbeth]

... I've also never understood the mindset "If I limit spells and the availability of magic items, it will instantly make my group more interested in roleplaying rather than rollplaying. ...

Well, it is not so much that a low magic setting will CAUSE a group of players to be better role-players. If a group of players only want to engage in hack'n'slash activities, no amount of rules-tweaking is going to get them to enjoy an immersive, plot-focused style of play. Rather, the appeal of low magic for some is that the kinds of plots and stories that engage people who like to focus on role-playing -- especially if their inspiration for playing fantasy RPGs, to some extent, comes from fantasy literature -- can often be realized better in a low magic setting. (This is not to say that there aren't high magic settings that are role-playing focused, or that low magic settings cannot be mindless hack'n'slash. My point is only that this is one reason why some people are attracted to low magic settings.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

The Magewright is an NPC class from Eberron, which is part of the reason it's been so short. They're basically arcane casters, max spell level 5, focus on 'utility' type spells that they'd like to make into minor magical items.

IMXP, there is no setting that encourages roleplaying, only a setting that encourages a particular *type* of roleplaying. It's not that low magic encourages roleplaying in general, it may be, though, that if your character is based more off of Frodo that it's not exactly *encouraged* in regular, high-magic D&D (due to there being no real great pathos to lugging around an intelligent ring of invisibility ).

But IMHO, someone who is good at roleplaying will do it regardless of setting or even genre of game. If it doesn't encourage Frodo, they'll be Kenshin Himura or Achilles or Batman or whatever. Or, they'll find a way that Frodo does work (lugging around an artifact-level sword imbued with the corrupted soul of your ancestors that re-animates everything it kills as undead has plenty of pathos....), and do that.

Low magic encourages certain types of characters that high magic doesn't, true. But I'd say someone who CAN'T role-play a different type probably isn't that great of a role-player to begin with. But I speak as an actor, so perhaps switching roles is easy for me and those I game with.

 

[Sado]

The Magewright is an NPC class from Eberron, which is part of the reason it's been so short. They're basically arcane casters, max spell level 5, focus on 'utility' type spells that they'd like to make into minor magical items.

Got it. Like an adept but with arcane spells.

 

[Mystery Man]

Rather, the appeal of low magic for some is that the kinds of plots and stories that engage people who like to focus on role-playing -- especially if their inspiration for playing fantasy RPGs, to some extent, comes from fantasy literature -- can often be realized better in a low magic setting.

Explain to me how you can't do this with a high magic type game? Because I can tell you that my games are mid-high(mostly high) magic type games and I just don't have this issue with roll v. role play. I think this is Dark J's problem as well although I'm hazarding a guess here.

 

[Belegbeth]

Explain to me how you can't do this with a high magic type game? Because I can tell you that my games are mid-high(mostly high) magic type games and I just don't have this issue with roll v. role play. I think this is Dark J's problem as well although I'm hazarding a guess here.

Why you can't simulate the kinds of adventures and plots found in classic fantasy literature in a high magic DnD setting is pretty obvious.

But if you had actually read my entire message, you would have realized that I was not suggesting that you cannot have role-playing focused games in a high magic world. Again:
"This is not to say that there aren't high magic settings that are role-playing focused, or that low magic settings cannot be mindless hack'n'slash..."

Such games can have interesting plots, compelling characters, etc. I am sure that many are great fun! They just will not resemble anything in Tolkien, Vance, Leiber, Howard, etc. (Instead, my impression is that they are closer to "science fiction" games, but where magic simply replaces technology.)

 

[Mystery Man]

Why you can't simulate the kinds of adventures and plots found in classic fantasy literature in a high magic DnD setting is pretty obvious.

But if you had actually read my entire message, you would have realized that I was not suggesting that you cannot have role-playing focused games in a high magic world. Again:
"This is not to say that there aren't high magic settings that are role-playing focused, or that low magic settings cannot be mindless hack'n'slash..."

Such games can have interesting plots, compelling characters, etc. I am sure that many are great fun! They just will not resemble anything in Tolkien, Vance, Leiber, Howard, etc. (Instead, my impression is that they are closer to "science fiction" games, but where magic simply replaces technology.)

Yeah I know I read the sentence. I was responding to the one after it, which is why I quoted it.

 

[Desdichado]

Bad reasons: PC's don't have to think in high magic campaigns!!!, I don't want +5 swords to be valueless!!!!, Plane shift is overpowered!!!, I can't think of how to challenge a party with Teleport!!!, I want epic quests/mysteries/dangerous journeys and there are no epic quests/mysteries/dangerous journeys with high magic!!!

Just because you put lots of exclamation points after each of those to make it look silly doesn't mean those are all bad reasons to prefer low magic.

 

[GlassJaw]

Because I can tell you that my games are mid-high(mostly high) magic type games and I just don't have this issue with roll v. role play

Yes but I think it becomes more difficult in a high-magic game. The items, spells, etc become a "distraction". It's just inherently built-in to the default level of magic in the system.

I'm starting to see it in one of the campaigns I'm currently playing in. We are all 15-16th level and the magic level is pretty high. We are allowed to buy magic items at times in some of the cities. Combat becomes a bear. Everyone is sifting through pages of character sheets and rulebooks to read about their spells and item abilities. It doesn't matter what level of roll vs role-playing you have in your campaign. When you that much stuff , things slow down and become more about accounting than story.

Last night we were fighting a dragon in his underwater lair. We were buffed to high heaven. Was it fun? Absolutely. Could I see myself getting tired of this type of game though? Most definitely. And it's probably starting to happen. When your whole session is basically a couple of battles and not much role-playing or story progression or puzzle/problem-solving, it starts to wear on you.

I'm honestly not really sure if you can stave off this type of scenario in a high-magic game, no matter how good of a DM you are.

I, myself, don't care much for "low magic, grim & gritty" because every time I've sampled that play style it just plain wasn't fun for me, not to mention that many LMGG fanboys can be downright elitist in their attitudes; believing that they are somehow more mature and enlightened than people who play regular or high magic games. I've also never understood the mindset "If I limit spells and the availability of magic items, it will instantly make my group more interested in roleplaying rather than rollplaying. Damn, I'm smart!"

Thanks for trying to explain my situation for me, and much clearer at that Jezter. I think this is why I developed such a negative view of low-magic. My first introduction to low-magic was such a campaign. I had more of a problem with how the campaign was presented than the campaign itself. I was to feel that every character idea I had was because I was a min/maxer or powergamer. It wasn't a positive experience.

I've come to realize that high-magic vs low-magic has nothing to do with the quality or maturity of the players involved. Knuckleheads play low and high-magic campaigns.

 

[Barastrondo]

This thread has surpassed even my wildest dreams! Thanks to all so far. I definitely have a new understanding (and a lot of cool ideas!) about different campaign styles.

I know more than a few people here run low-magic (or whatever you want to call it) campaigns. What I'd like to see is what you actually give to the players when you are starting the campaign. I'm talking about low-magic campaign CRUNCH here.

Higher stats, for one. Since I presume that there will be far fewer items that will grant a +2 or +4 to the attribute of your choice (and in some cases, spells like fox's cunning and owl's wisdom didn't appear in the game), I grant players better stats at 1st level — if we're doing point-buy, this usually means being much higher than the recommended levels in the DMG. I've found, so far, that this means that right around the "sweet spot" of 5th-10th level the characters have stats that are roughly where they would be if they started with average stats and just added magical items. At lower levels, they have a definite edge over their foes, but that's good — it gently assuages the problem of survivability at low-level.

Most everything else is not rule-based: it's judgment calls for how to enforce the idea that the player characters are special, and that they feel good about who they are and what they can do. A greatly lowered spellcaster density means that yes, there are fewer clerics to run to for healing and much fewer wizards to approach — but it also means that a PC cleric who can cast spells is, even at 1st level, really remarkable. Careful selection of opponents is also necessary, not just to make sure that you don't hurt the party overmuch by using monsters that presume the default level of magic, but also to showcase the PCs' abilities that they get from their class and race. If a fighter just picked up Great Cleave, it's time to hit him with a swarm of relatively low-HP monsters so that he can feel like a stud. (Actually, I'm prone to letting the PCs run into encounters that they can easily handle now and again simply so that they can really feel how they've improved over the years; sometimes you just wanna plow through some mooks.)

I've come to realize that high-magic vs low-magic has nothing to do with the quality or maturity of the players involved.

This is exactly true. The quality and maturity of the players involved is usually better reflected in how well they agree on what sort of game they'd like to play, how respectful they are of each other's tastes, and how much fun they have around the table.

 

[DragonLancer]

When beholders are floating around your low-magic world, something strange is going on.

Magical monsters aren't the issue, IMO. You can have magical creatures in your low-magic game. With low-magic, items should be rare and not easily purchasable, and some of the higher level spells that affect the game (teleport. teleport circle, ressurection, wish ...etc) are not all that prevalent.

So long as the game being run, is not over-balanced in favour of the NPC's and monsters, magic-wise then the nature of the monster is irrelevant.

That make any sense?