Why the D20 system has no merits and flaws system ?

[Cybern]

So maybe my experience with merits/flaws experience wasn't normal, as I did not have these power gamer problems...

I guess the D20 system, being level-oriented, has no place for merits/flaws.

I just tend to like the other companies' games because of it, or maybe because of our use of it.

If merits/flaws costed/gave skill points at 1st level, on a WW basic (+/- 7 max), blind-but-photographic-memory-guys wouldn't plague the earth.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The problem -- in my opinion -- is that the flaws can override the DMs plot and are then typically ignored. So if you have the flaw "an evil guy is hunting me" the DM can basically either:

This is a good thing in my book. The DM should be designing his adventures around the PC's anyway.

 

[Cybern]

This is a good thing in my book. The DM should be designing his adventures around the PC's anyway.

I agree! If the DM doesn't include the characters' background, how are players going to get motivated writing good ones?

 

[Darth Shoju]

I agree that a merit/flaw system leads to too much min/maxing (just read KODT for a taste of that ). An idea I've toyed with is doing away with flaws, but allowing characters to take one free feat at first level, but the feat must be taken from a list of the feats that give you +2 to two skills. Most of those feats have names like "acrobatic" and stuff, so they give the character some traits without leading to a lot of min/maxing (although I'm sure there will still be some).

Does anyone think that is an overpowered solution? I've been mulling it over for a while and I'm not sure myself.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

The min/max argument - right, and D&D doesn't already have a billion little tools for this sort of thing.

Flaws don't work in a system that is designed only to add things to a PC. Flaws also, unless completely generic, are world specific, as are the value of certain merits/feats (a wilderness campaign will see little use for feats like "Mafia connections").

That said there are ways of bringing Flaws and Merits into a system that don't equate to power gaming.

1. Everyone has one flaw. All flaws are equal in power - say a -2 to two related skills (which the PC can use normally) or one -2 to a class ability (such as spell DCs), or -1 to a significant ability (saving throw, AC, Hit Points, etc). Since everyone has this flaw the effect is balanced.

2. Flaws and Merits are mixed blessings. One game (whose name escapes me) uses this method. The mechanical benefit of a flaw (the merit side of it) only comes into effect when the flaw is triggered. One way of looking at this would be a pseudo-2e Ranger's chosen enemy - you have an unending hatred for a certain type of creature, one that grants you benefits (the merit) when dealing with them offensively, however, you are also blinded by your hate (the flaw), possibly comitting Alignment infractions and other bad things. Another possibility in this area would be using the flaw as a "dynamic editing" of the story - i.e. the player have an impact in the direction of the plot narrative in the hopes of triggering their merit/flaw. The obvious example here is the nemesis - the character gaining bonuses when fighitng their nemesis but allowing the Player to insert their nemesis when needed (note that the Nemesis, to count as such, is an opponent worthy of the character, they are not mooks, and killing the nemesis merely resolves the plot, you lose the benefits forever).

3. The math is weighted against min/max. Another common way around the min/maxer - Flaws are simply worth less than the attendant merits. For example, you must take a at least two -2/-2 flaws in order to take a +2/+2 merit. If two is not enough then think about making it 3 or more. That way they still get the +2/+2 feat for "free" (not through level advancement) but the result is rarely worth it.

BESM d20 and Tri-Stat X would both have these features, as does Silhouette Core. But anyone really interested in seeing how Merit/Flaw systems have evolved are encouraged to look at White Wolf - in particular Adventure! and Mage Revised Player's Guide.

 

[Nightfall]

Well I think AU uses something to that effect Dark Shou.

Cybern, I'd say you just got damn lucky. For the most part, every type of game that I've been in (Most of them WoD) the players chose stuff that was either a) not used by the Gamemaster or b) Had SO little impact on the overall game that you'd been better off not using it at all.

As for your suggestions, I just think no matter what system is used, there will ALWAYS be people looking to exploit the game to make them feel more powerful. It's just the nature of people, even female gamers. It's a sad fact but a basic one. You look at games like Final Fantasy. They don't have a level system per sae. But they do increase their mana powers and weaponry. That appears to be about the only point to the system. And people LIKE those kinds of games when you are talking about Fantasy RPG or even SCI-FI RPGs. The plain unvarnished truth of it is, most people WANT power. Why? Because it's a need that they feel will fill their lives on some level. It's because we are ALL inherantly unsatified with our lots in life no matter if we are rich or poor. We want control and yet don't want the responibilites that come with it. That is the crux of gaming as well as life. So if you'll excuse me for waxing philosophical for a moment, I'll think you'll find, you'll just have to accept that about gaming and life.

 

[Nightfall]

BESM d20 and Tri-Stat X would both have these features, as does Silhouette Core. But anyone really interested in seeing how Merit/Flaw systems have evolved are encouraged to look at White Wolf - in particular Adventure! and Mage Revised Player's Guide.

Funy I tried that there as well...and it STILL came out the same way. Sorry but while your arguement has merit this again comes down to two common demoninators. 1) The fact that unless the DM/GM set ups a SPECIFIC campaign to generate the use of flaws as well as merits, it means NOTHING! 2) That even if such things are used, the Player will ignore them unless called on it.

Also comparatively speaking, I'll take D&D/d20 power gaming over a system of Flaws and Merits power gaming any day of the week, and twice on Sunday, plus days ending in y. Mainly because it's the lesser of two evil. A smart DM can and will find a way to see a way past what makes that player a threat in one area. Unlike a Flaws and Merit system that just lets people pick and choose skills/bonuses and then says "Go for it!"

 

[Tsyr]

If you want flaws, take them. Nobody is stopping you. Go right ahead.

There, that gives you all the character development you need.

 

[Nightfall]

If you want flaws, take them. Nobody is stopping you. Go right ahead.

There, that gives you all the character development you need.

Indeed. Even with me posting twenty times a day will not stop someone. Might make them go blind but otherwise it's your game folks. I just rant a lot and pimp 24/7

 

[DonAdam]

Boo to flaws giving extra points