Why the ELH didn't do it for me...

[Lizard]

First off, this isn't a "The ELH is just for stupid munchkins" post. So, if that's what you're looking for, go elsewhere.

OK, so I got the ELH on Friday. I haven't read it cover-to-cover yet, but I've read enough to form an impression. It doesn't suck, it's not even bad, it's just that something's...missing.

The problem isn't that it's too over-the-top. If anything, the problem is that it's not over the top ENOUGH.

To me, 'epic' should set my mind reeling with visions of Things Beyond The Fields We Know. Paladins in armor made of liquid diamond wielding swords of emerald steel which crackle with the power of a living soul. A mage riding a dragon made of bone and iron, destroying a city with a gesture. Rogues who can steal the sun from the sky or the color from a maiden's eyes. That sort of thing.

But the ELH just seems to be "turn it up to 11". Add the word 'Epic' or 'Improved' or 'Greater' to a feat, and that's that. There's something *missing*.

Magic items: Bland, bland, bland. This is where the book really failed to stir me. I want unbelievably ubercool unique items of ungoldy power, not thising thatting blade theothering. The list of miscellanous items was especially disappointing. One thing which bothered me is that just extending the scale is something anyone can do -- it take no imagination to go from a belt of +2 Strength to a belt of +8 strength. At least offer us some cool names -- Belt of the Ogre, Belt of the Giant, Belt of the Dragon, Belt of the Elder Wyrm, Belt of the Greater Titan...something to spark the imagination a little. Words MATTER.

You wanna know how to do over-the-top and do it right? Arduin. Go back to the old Arduin Grimoire, circa 1979, and see what 'Epic' is all about.

This message posted to both ENworld and RPG.net, because I'm curious as to how the two communities will react. Probably get ignored by both.

 

[Crothian]

There is some good stuff in there. But you are right in the magic item section. I think there are maybe 5 or 6 that someone but a little thought into. The rest was just making better versions of what they had before. Same with many of the feats. However, the monsters and the Epic Spells are very good. Those are the two sectiohns in the book I will be using the most.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Well, I haven't read the thing yet, so I'm probably going to be at least a little off base here. What I've been hearing though, is that the only truly "epic" thing that the PCs get is Epic Spellcasting. It sounds really interesting, with fantastic powers and consequences. Everything I've heard about the other classes sounds like just tacking on to existing stats. "Look, we've raised the ceiling for this boost from X to X+10" Sorry, but that's remarkably uninspiring. I guess I'm going to have to buy the book and hope there's something I find interesting there for non-spellcasters, but the discussion I've heard so far isn't encouraging me. Comments?

EDIT: Irksome spelling error.

 

[Crothian]

For me the book works because it has the crunchy bits for all characters. And even if it's not there I think it would be easy to create epic feats to allow for powers the PCs want. It's not the most creative book, by a longshot. But it does do what it needs to do. I've created two epic NPCs and both have turned out just fine. Better, in fact, then I was thinking it could.

 

[Psion]

I'll pretty much repost my reply from RPGnet too:

To me, 'epic' should set my mind reeling with visions of Things Beyond The Fields We Know. Paladins in armor made of liquid diamond wielding swords of emerald steel which crackle with the power of a living soul. Mage riding a dragon made of bone and iron, destroying a city with a gesture. Rogues who can steal the sun from the sky or the color from a maiden's eyes. That sort of thing.

Lizard, I'll be goldurned if you aren't rapidly turning into my favorite wellspring of d20 ideas... first that Dragonstar post, then this.

You must write an epic level supplement as soon as it hits the SRD!

But the ELH just seems to be "turn it up to 11".

Heh... I said those exact words in the "I'm scared" ELH thread here on ENWorld.

This message posted to both ENworld and RPG.net, because I'm curious as to how the two communities will react. Probably get ignored by both.

Actually, mouseferatu, myself, and a few others have said words to this effect already when we talk about the book being "soulless" over on the thread in the "I'm scared" one. I must admit you express yourself better, though. But you aren't alone by any means.

I think the book had some promise in this realm... the monster chapter was cool, IMO. But a lot was really lacking sparkle, IMO.

 

[Lizard]

I'll pretty much repost my reply from RPGnet too:



Lizard, I'll be goldurned if you aren't rapidly turning into my favorite wellspring of d20 ideas... first that Dragonstar post, then this.

You must write an epic level supplement as soon as it hits the SRD!

I'm still withdrawing from my first full book....but I did it! I did it! Now, if only it doesn't suck...

But I digress. I would love to do some Epic stuff, and, when the ELH hits the SRD (whoa, too many TLAs!) I'll definitely be jumping on the inevitable open calls...

Heh... I said those exact words in the "I'm scared" ELH thread here on ENWorld.



Actually, mouseferatu, myself, and a few others have said words to this effect already when we talk about the book being "soulless" over on the thread in the "I'm scared" one. I must admit you express yourself better, though. But you aren't alone by any means.

I think the book had some promise in this realm... the monster chapter was cool, IMO. But a lot was really lacking sparkle, IMO.

The monster section, IMO, showed what it COULD be. That section was where I felt they truly pulled out the stops. While there were a few 'pin the template on the monster' bits (which, frankly, I'd expect and want -- the epic world should not be devoid of familiar creatures), the bulk of the section showed some genuine imagination, not just "stick a few more hit dice on it".

Another good source for what 'Epic' should are the later comics of Jack Kirby. Heh. Combine the ELH with D20 Modern and play 'The Eternals'. Hmm...you know....

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Random tangent: Lizard, do you read Dunsany, by any chance?

 

[Nightfall]

I certainly agree with your guys idea. Perhaps Lizard should talk to my mate Krusty about epic level stuff. I think you'd find what he's talking about very interesting.

 

[Lizard]

Random tangent: Lizard, do you read Dunsany, by any chance?

No, and I know I *should*. My grounding in the classics of the genre is very limited.

 

[Psion]

Another good source for what 'Epic' should are the later comics of Jack Kirby. Heh. Combine the ELH with D20 Modern and play 'The Eternals'. Hmm...you know....

Funny you should mention that.

My first GM's campaign was based largely on the "Thor" and "New Gods" comics, which both saw Kirby's pen from time to time. It has had a pretty lasting effect.

Those games were pretty epic in and of themselves.