Why the ELH didn't do it for me...

[kreynolds]

Magic items: Bland, bland, bland. This is where the book really failed to stir me. I want unbelievably ubercool unique items of ungoldy power, not thising thatting blade theothering.

Epic items? Epic items?! EPIC ITEMS!?! How's this for epic items!?!...

Armband of Frost: This powerfully enchanted armband is composed entirely of hizagkuur, giving the metal a silvery-gray appearance. It fits snuggly around the wearer’s bicep and adjusts itself to fit perfectly. Upon placing the item on one’s arm, the armband glows a bright blue and burns it’s way into the flesh, disappearing altogether. The armband leaves behind a dark blue tattoo of the same shape. The wearer immediately suffers 120 points of cold damage (no save).

If the wearer survives the assault, they are now gifted with the ability to launch rays of cold from their eyes as a supernatural ability. Both rays strike the same target as a ranged touch attack (up to 120 feet), dealing 120 points of cold damage. A successful Fortitude save (DC 34) will halve this damage. The eye rays may be used at will every other round and are activated by mental command as a free action, triggering no attacks of opportunity. Spell resistance does not affect the rays.

Creatures of the fire subtype suffer double damage on failed saving throw. Creatures of the water subtype suffer no further ill effects except standard damage. If the rays are able to completely remove all hit points from a creature or object they are frozen solid and may be shattered within 1 minute via a melee attack that deals at least 1 point of damage. If the rays are fired upon a body of water, the liquid freezes to a depth of 6 inches over an area equal to 2,000 square feet (20 10x10 squares). The ice will melt normally.

The armband also converts all cold damage sustained by the wearer into healing hit points. This is also a supernatural ability and is constantly active. This effect overrides any cold resistance the wearer may have.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Energy Absorption, Eyes of Pain, Imbuement, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere, Ray of Frost; Market Price: Topic for another thread gp.

...want another one!?!...

Daggerstorm Glove: This single, fine leather glove functions as a glove of daggers, though up to ten daggers may be stored and there is no limit to how many daggers may be thrown in a single round. Also, the wearer of the glove is not limited to using the daggers in the order they were placed within. The dagger of choice is always the dagger thrown, allowing the wearer to throw the stored daggers in any order they wish.

A daggerstorm glove also grants the wearer one additional attack per round at the wearer’s highest attack bonus when throwing a dagger, as per the speed enhancement. This extra attack does not stack with haste or haste-like effects.

However, the most powerful property of the daggerstorm glove is that it magically duplicates all thrown daggers. When a dagger is thrown, the glove creates a duplicate of the weapon composed of force. No other effects are duplicated, such as other weapon enhancements or spells placed upon the daggers. The force dagger duplicates require a separate attack roll and use the same attack bonus of the dagger duplicated.

The force dagger duplicates have the same statistics of a normal dagger in regards to range increments, critical threat range, and the critical multiplier. Each force dagger duplicate inflicts 1d4+1 points of force damage and they are not subject to spell resistance or damage reduction.

Although it is highly beneficial to possess two of these gloves, the creation process yields only one.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, haste, magic missile, shrink item, teleport without error; Market Price: Topic for another thread gp.

...how about another!?!...

Tiger Amulet: This beautifully designed amulet features a nearly priceless cat’s eye gemstone surrounded by dozens of small emerald fragments. The amulet bestows damage reduction 10/-- upon the wearer while worn.

Activated as a standard action, the amulet proves to be far more valuable. First, the amulet grants a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, and a +6 enhancement bonus to Constitution.

The wearer then undergoes physical changes. Long fangs grow in their mouth and large claws extend from their fingers, granting the wearer natural attacks with both claws and a single bite. You attack with your claws at your full base attack bonus and your bite at only 2 from your full attack bonus (as if you had the Multiattack feat). Your claws deal 1d8 points of damage each (1d6 if you are Small), and your bite deals 2d6 (2d4 if you are Small).

You also gain the benefits of the Blind-Fight and Power Attack feats as well, and a +15 natural armor bonus. The tiger amulet does not take up a worn item slot.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, bite of the weretiger, stoneskin; Market Price: Topic for another thread gp.

...and for the grand finale!!!...

Weave Chariot: Gargantuan vehicle; Concentration +10; Spd 120 ft. (good); Overall hp 180 (hardness 40); Overall AC 20 (-5 unattended object, -4 size, +4 armor, +15 deflection); Atk (12d6, ram); Face 40 ft. by 25 ft.; Height 10 ft.; Crew 1 (plus 4 passengers); Weight 7,000 lb.; Cargo 2 tons; Cost Topic for another thread gp.

This unusual magic device is somewhat wedge-shaped and composed of smooth lines and gently curving surfaces. It is actually a magical chariot capable of holding up to four passengers. The chariot is named so because it seethes with powerful magic. It is capable of traveling at speeds of up to 120 feet per round. The chariot must move at least 10 feet to reach full speed.

Controlling the vehicle requires a Concentration check (+10 bonus from ease of use) and is a move-equivalent action.

Five plush and comfortable chairs set into three rows adorn the otherwise bland interior. The first chair makes up the front row and sits just behind the forward viewing portal of the chariot. Two large emerald gems are inset into the armrests of the chair and serve as the controls for the chariot. Three more passenger seats are located behind the first, with one additional seat behind those. This rear seat, however, is not stationary and swivels on a stand, allowing the occupant to face in any direction, as well as view the outside through the rear-viewing portal. While inside the chariot, the driver and rear passenger both benefit from ¾ cover in regards to attacks from the front or the rear, and 9/10 cover in regards to attacks from the sides of the chariot. Passengers in the center row of the chariot benefit from ½ cover in regards to attacks from the sides and 9/10 cover in regards to attacks from the front or rear of the chariot. The sides of the chariot, the entrances, are open to the outside. There are no doors or hatches.

The frame of the chariot is constructed of solid adamantine. The frame has a hardness of 40 and 80 hit points. The surface of the metal has been brushed to avoid light reflection and glare. The chariot constantly hovers 1 foot from the ground, though this does not aid in manually moving the vehicle, as sufficient force is still required to move 7,000 pounds.

A nondimensional trunk is located in the rear of the chariot. It can hold up to 2 tons of cargo. Items with dimensions less than 10 feet in any direction will fit inside the nondimensional trunk.

The body of the chariot is also heavily protected by magic. It is immune to fire, acid, and sonic attacks and has cold and lightning resistance 30. The armor carries a +4 enhancement, thus only +4 weapons or better can cause any damage. A powerful deflection field covers the skin of the chariot, granting it a +15 bonus to AC.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, fly, hardening, haste, wish; Market Price: Topic for another thread gp.

...any of those epic enough for ya'?

 

[Lizard]

I have to admit I am very intrigued by this 'Arduin Grimoire' you mention Lizard!? Can you tell us a bit more?

Here's how you can tell a true oldsk00l gamer. Say the word "Arduin". If they get a blank, glassy-eyed stare, they're newbies. If they suddenly light up and start talking about 'grey horrors' and 'my 37th level halfling slaver' and 'I remember that critical I rolled' and 'Kill kittens...kill kittens! They're everywhere! Everywhere!', then, they're oldsk00l.

The Arduin Trilogy was a series of three books, similair in form to the ORIGINAL D&D & supplements, published by the late David Hargrave during the golden age of RPGing. Tiny type, crude illustrations, and packed with an incredible density of ideas. No refinement, no detail, no depth, just idea after idea after idea. Spells, monsters, magic items, classes, races, names of inns, names of dungeons, names of coins, new combat rules, new hit point rules, random editorial comments, references to unpublished bits and pieces, a total mish-mash of damned near everything under the sun . Totally unprofessional by today's standard. They were written as supplements to original D&D and couldn't be used otherwise, but, for legal reasons, Hargrave kept insisting they were a 'complete game'.

The original three were:
The Arduin Grimoire
Welcome to Skull Tower
The Runes of Doom

You can often find them on eBay. Ignore or avoid "The Compleat Arduin" a posthumous recompilation with all the soul surgically removed. Arduin's IV trough VIII were good, but less dense, drifting further from D&D variant and more to Dave's slowly-evolving house rules. Still a good idea source, very, very, good, just not quite as wild and wooly as the original three.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

I have never doubted that Krusty mate.

You know I deliver! Just be careful playing about with Epic Slarecian Dragons okay!

I just hope you'lll take the time to address some of the concerns people have raised about how to implement Epic level campaign ideas as well as working divine stuff and epic stuff as well.

Thats why I am taking an interest in threads like this. Although without having the ELH in my possession (yet) I can only follow generalisms rather than specifics.

I have analysed the many flaws of Deities & Demigods; and I am beginning to get a picture of what the Epic Level Handbook has done right and what it has done wrong!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Lizard!

Here's how you can tell a true oldsk00l gamer. Say the word "Arduin". If they get a blank, glassy-eyed stare, they're newbies. If they suddenly light up and start talking about 'grey horrors' and 'my 37th level halfling slaver' and 'I remember that critical I rolled' and 'Kill kittens...kill kittens! They're everywhere! Everywhere!', then, they're oldsk00l.

The Arduin Trilogy was a series of three books, similair in form to the ORIGINAL D&D & supplements, published by the late David Hargrave during the golden age of RPGing. Tiny type, crude illustrations, and packed with an incredible density of ideas. No refinement, no detail, no depth, just idea after idea after idea. Spells, monsters, magic items, classes, races, names of inns, names of dungeons, names of coins, new combat rules, new hit point rules, random editorial comments, references to unpublished bits and pieces, a total mish-mash of damned near everything under the sun . Totally unprofessional by today's standard. They were written as supplements to original D&D and couldn't be used otherwise, but, for legal reasons, Hargrave kept insisting they were a 'complete game'.

I think I recall Monte Cook mentioning David Hargrave in one of his recent website columns...

The original three were:
The Arduin Grimoire
Welcome to Skull Tower
The Runes of Doom

You can often find them on eBay. Ignore or avoid "The Compleat Arduin" a posthumous recompilation with all the soul surgically removed. Arduin's IV trough VIII were good, but less dense, drifting further from D&D variant and more to Dave's slowly-evolving house rules. Still a good idea source, very, very, good, just not quite as wild and wooly as the original three.

But what (in your eyes) does it contribute to Epic Level Campaigns?

Incidently - none of the above on ebay at the minute!

 

[Lizard]

But what (in your eyes) does it contribute to Epic Level Campaigns?

Nothing except FEEL. The sense of wildness, of 'anything is possible', of truly pushing the boundaries of the plausible (even in fantasy terms).

Three words: "Sense of Wonder". That's what it all boils down to.

 

[Ristamar]

Well, here's my brief opinion of the book. Take it for what it's worth...

I think the ELH mostly accomplishes what it sets out to do. Some of the criticisms raised against hold some merit, although, in my opinion, it receives more flak than it deserves.

The new feats seem to be pretty solid, allow a breadth of diversity among high level characters (which is of primary importance, IMO) and adequately demonstrate what epic feats are capable of providing. There isn't anything extremely creative about many of them, for the most part, but I think they easily fit well within any epic campaign. The approach may be generic, but it also leaves the door wide open, inviting DM creativity and customization with new feats.

The magic items are arguably bland. On the other hand, they are no more bland than those found in the DMG. Consider many of the artifacts in the DMG, such as the Staff of the Magi, St. Cuthbert's Mace, and the Shadowstaff. Essentially, these items are nothing more than standard magic items that break the standard magic item creation limits, with a few containing some minor quirks. What makes artifacts and epic items special is their history and background, of course, and this will always be the case. If you hand them out freely, and/or every high level PC/NPC has one, they'll lose their sparkle. At face value the epic weapon powers and abilities may appear to be uninsipired. However, I think they're also necessary for balance and structure. Looking at the chapter as a shopping catalog for powerful characters certainly puts it in a bad light. It's a solid starting point for designing epic magic items. Most WotC products containing new 'rules' for Magic Items seem to lack flavor (or 'soul') on a certain level, and the ELH is no exception. However, if you're satisified with the approach WotC uses in books like the DMG or Magic of Faerun, you'll probably be content with Epic Magic Items.

The Epic level spells/spell seeds is hands down the best part of the book. Cool spells, open ended customization, limitless options. Great stuff.

The chapter on epic monsters manages to come close to rivaling the chapter on epic spellcasting in terms of usefulness and potential. Yes, it does contain some templates that basically amount to "slap this on a monster to make it totally badass!" and oversized versions of older creatures (though this is not necessarily a bad thing), but there are plenty of creatures within it that are interesting enough to easily be the focus of entire campaign.

I'm still undecided on the city of Union, as I haven't had the chance to look over most of the information in that section, and the organizations are hit and miss. None seem to really stand out as being superb, but they do offer a few ideas on how high powered organizations may come together and operate.

The alleged lack of soul in the product didn't bother me as much as the deficient advice provided on creating, balancing, and running epic encounters and adventures. The beginnings of the information is there, but it feels as if they should have added a bit more. Overall, I'd give it a 4/5. While it's not as inspiring and visionary as something like Manual of The Planes, it is a solid and logical extension of the Core Rules. If you have any desire to run games with PC's reaching beyond 20th level, you should definitely own this book.

 

[Aaron L]

Another good source for what 'Epic' should are the later comics of Jack Kirby. Heh. Combine the ELH with D20 Modern and play 'The Eternals'. Hmm...you know....

Dang, that is just what I envisioned an epic level game would be like. Thanos and Galactus and Darkseid and the Power Cosmic and Quantum Bands and stuff. Nice.

Anyway, I like the ELH, very much. But people are right, I read through it looking for just a little more. The energy blast feats, the real "DANG! Look at THAT!" stuff. And there wasn't too much. The book is GREAT, and I am very happy with it. As a rule system for unlimited advancement it is outstanding, but we need some more crazy stuff! Web enhancement support could do this, like the Minds Eye Theatre is doing for the PsiHB.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Aaron mate!

Dang, that is just what I envisioned an epic level game like. Thanos and Galactus and Darkseid and stuff. Nice.

I have this site as one of my favourites!

http://members.tripod.com/~Darkbird/thanos.html

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think I may have finally managed to figure out how to say what I've been trying to say in the other thread, so I'll repost the last thing I said there.

I'm going to take one last crack at this, before I throw up my hands in despair and figure that I'm just not expressing the way I feel properly.

(This, by the way, is why I write fiction. I have no problems expressing how fictional characters feel, but I can't express my own viewpoints all that succinctly...)

First, I should never have brought up fiction examples, because we all have differing ideas of where fiction fits into this sort of thing. So scrap all that. Let's bring the focus back to where it belongs--D&D specifically.

As characters and campaigns advance, the DM is ultimately left with two different types of challenges to throw at them: More and Different.

More is the drift from kobolds to orcs to ogres to giants to demons to dragons; from masterwork swords to +2 keen to +5 holy avengers. The monsters are tougher, and they have more magic, and the characters have a much wider array of abilities and spells with which to combat them, but it's still, boiled down its most basic form, more of the same stuff you were doing at first level.

Important Note: There is nothing wrong with this. "More" is fun. More is essential. Characters get tougher, monsters get tougher. That's the way it works. What I've said so far is not a complaint, and not be taken in any negative light whatsoever. "More" is an integral part of the game, and of advancement.

The other option is Different. Different means stuff the characters haven't done before. When you throw your first mystery at them, that's Different. When they're high enough level to begin ruling their own territory, or playing politics with kings, that's Different. And when--if your campaigns reach this stage--they begin hobnobbing with deities, that's Different.

Now, remember what I said about More being essential? It is. But it's not enough. As campaigns advance, for them to remain fun--in my opinion, of course--they must include a good mix of More and Different.

The Epic Level Handbook does More very well. Extremely well, even. But it falters on Different.

The problem is, it goes so high in the direction of More that--again, in my opinion--it doesn't feel right if the world doesn't in some way change with it. It's different, but it's not Different, if you get my meaning. They give us all these new toys to play with, but they only tell us how to get More use out of them.

Where are the challenges that only epic-level characters can face? Sure, we've got really tough monsters, but that's just More. Where are the Different challenges? Where are the new plots, the new types of stories to tell? Or, if that's asking too much, where are the tips on making the More at least feel Different? Where are the tools to make a battle between a 50th level party and a Prismatic Dragon feel different--and Different--than a battle between an 18th level party and a Red Dragon? Where are the magic items that, rather than just doing the same old stuff with higher numbers, do things that we never even imagined at low levels?

Does the book touch on this? Yes, a bit. But not nearly enough, and that's where my dissatisfaction lies. My problem is not with the massive power levels of the characters in an epic campaign. My problem is that the book only deals with massive power levels, without delving into repurcussions and stories that stem from them.

Again, I'm not talking about hand-holding, although some of you may see it that way. I've been DMing for almost 20 years, I know how to build a story. But I still appreciate being given the tools with which to build those stories, and ELH didn't provide them. Tools for building epic characters, yes, absolutely. But, at least in my mind, a story involving these proto-demigods should feel different--and Different--than a lower-level story. And the book simply doesn't provide any means, or even any tips, on doing that.

As the book stands now--at least as I see it--an epic level campaign is the same as a lower-level campaign, just with higher numbers and bigger monsters. I wanted more than that. I wanted more than just the mechanics to change at 21st level. I wanted more than just a continuation of the same progression we've seen when it comes to magic items. And I'll provide more than that if/when I run one, but I'd hope to get at least something in that regard from the book.

They managed it with epic-level spells. Those are something new. Heck, I might even try to retro-engineer the system at some point as an optional replacement to the normal fire-and-forget spell slots. This wasn't just More, it was Different. And it's one of my favorite parts of the book. I just wish more of the book could have been like this.

 

[Nightfall]

Okay Liz, no offense intended, and as I said, I'm all about epic stuff, but if you already HAVE a sense wonder, why then does the epic level rules leave you cold? I know what I feel about, that is there's room for improvement that I think could be done within the bounds of epic level stuff, but I guess if I'm already in state of wonder then what else is left?

Krusty,

Don't worry about me. I'm more interested now in creating something FAR more deadly, A Slacerian! Yep, I've decided I'll create one, as an epic level Psion with some wizard levels that focuses on Summoning and Necromantic powers far greater than most mere mortals.

As for what I think you'll do...well You know I have every confidence in you. Btw have you seen my Jinn yet on the CC Homebrew? I think you'll like them. If not I'll email you them.