D&D 4E Why Vampires Suck in 3.X, and How 4e Can Fix Them

[Rechan]

Why exactly should undead and constructs have no con score and all kinds of abilities tied to them? What design advantages do you get from dropping an integral ability score, creating all kinds of border cases? What if you want to make an undead or a construct without these immunities?

... What does that have to do at all with what you quoted?

Warforged have a con score. I am proposing an undead race with a con score. Who, like I just said, are not immune to enchantment/illusion, etc?

Warforged are a +0 LA race. What about that is unplayable?

 

[Deset Gled]

The problem: Vampires aren't cool enough.

The solution: Play Vampire, the Masquerade. Or maybe the Buffy RPG. But please, keep your "tortured soul looking for redemption, toiling with the very essence of what is right or wrong" as far away from my game as possible.

 

[Wormwood]

The solution: Play Vampire, the Masquerade. Or maybe the Buffy RPG. But please, keep your "tortured soul looking for redemption, toiling with the very essence of what is right or wrong" as far away from my game as possible.

Isn't this thread about soliciting ideas for making such a concept work in the 4e environment?

 

[frankthedm]

I can't say that I've ever considered DnD vampirism to be an affliction that PCs should often get. There's no conceptual abuse involved - vampires are monsters.

Yep, you turn, you are a monster to be put down. You friends save you or it is time for Stake 'n Bake.

 

[Anthtriel]

... What does that have to do at all with what you quoted?

Warforged have a con score. I am proposing an undead race with a con score. Who, like I just said, are not immune to enchantment/illusion, etc?

Warforged are a +0 LA race. What about that is unplayable?

Oh ... er ... sorry, never mind ... that was a pretty major case of reading snafu on my part then.
I guess it's because I somehow thought Warforged don't have a con score, or something similar.

 

[lukelightning]

Call me old fashioned, but vampires are monsters. Same with lycanthropes. If you turn into a vampire, you are no longer the same person. Your mind and soul are rewritten. Otherwise, what's the point of trying to stop the werewolves? Why not just let [ieverybody become werewolves and then go on with life as usual? Where is the horror of vampires if it is just another way to be a moody goth?

And mechanically, the "deal with the devil" class (warlock) is fine, because that is just fluff to represent the class abilities. You're not getting something for nothing. You're not getting anything above and beyond your class abilities...your deal with the devil IS your class ability.

 

[Klaus]

Vampires took a heap of conceptual abuse in 3.X. Vampirism should be an affliction that a PC can stand a reasonable chance of contracting if they tangle with afflicted beasties, and the mechanics of vampires should reflect that.

They do.

The actual practice of applying the template to infected PCs, however, falls absolutely flat, producing unbalanced PCs and derailing the game to a significant degree.

As well it should.

falling eight hit dice behind the rest of the party tends to turn any vampire PC, regardless of class, into a stealth-focused controller of a cadre of thralls.

You're forgetting the d12 HD (your human Rogue 6 with +1 Con jumps from 6d6+6 hp to 6d12, with maximum hp jumping from 42 to 72). You're ALSO forgetting the DR 10/silver AND magic. Unless it's a silver magic weapon, you're taking 10 points of damage less than usual.

Unless he immediately loses eight class levels, a new PC vampire becomes, far and away, the most powerful member of the group, and gains little to no experience for more than a month of gaming sessions, while his companions catch up to him.

As well it should be. The new vampire is getting the hang of his new powers, while his companions are still working with the tools they had.

tl;dr: Turn templates into prestige classes.

You mean like the monster classes from Savage Species? Yeah, WotC thought so too, which is why they have the Vampire Monster Class up for free at their website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

 

[Hella_Tellah]

You mean like the monster classes from Savage Species? Yeah, WotC thought so too, which is why they have the Vampire Monster Class up for free at their website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Good job spotting my inspiration for the concept. Yeah, I have heard of Savage Species, and I'm suggesting that it's a mechanically superior way to model PCs with acquired templates.

As well it should be. The new vampire is getting the hang of his new powers, while his companions are still working with the tools they had.

Game elements that derail and unbalance the game are bad game elements, not features. I'm saying that it's better to model the vampire "getting the hang of his abilities" by having those abilities improve over time, rather than come as a windfall that makes the already laughable CR system completely inapplicable to the party.

 

[frankthedm]

Isn't this thread about soliciting ideas for making such a concept work in the 4e environment?

Thats one side of this discusion and the OP's take. Another side is "Vampries are monsters and playable vampires feel the opposite direction of 4E's points of light ".

 

[Anthtriel]

As well it should.

Why do something badly when you can do it well?

You're forgetting the d12 HD (your human Rogue 6 with +1 Con jumps from 6d6+6 hp to 6d12, with maximum hp jumping from 42 to 72). You're ALSO forgetting the DR 10/silver AND magic. Unless it's a silver magic weapon, you're taking 10 points of damage less than usual.

And he loses his con bonus, along with the benefit of con buffs and con boosting items. For wizards and maybe rogues it's a fair (but not actually good) tradeoff, for everyone else it's a disadvantage.
If that vampire character somehow ends up in a AoE, he is dead ash.

You mean like the monster classes from Savage Species? Yeah, WotC thought so too, which is why they have the Vampire Monster Class up for free at their website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Which is a mechanical nightmare.

Call me old fashioned, but vampires are monsters. Same with lycanthropes. If you turn into a vampire, you are no longer the same person. Your mind and soul are rewritten. Otherwise, what's the point of trying to stop the werewolves? Why not just let [ieverybody become werewolves and then go on with life as usual? Where is the horror of vampires if it is just another way to be a moody goth?

And mechanically, the "deal with the devil" class (warlock) is fine, because that is just fluff to represent the class abilities. You're not getting something for nothing. You're not getting anything above and beyond your class abilities...your deal with the devil IS your class ability.

You must have missed the last 50 years or so of repentant vampire media. Well, it's a lot older I guess.

Good job spotting my inspiration for the concept. Yeah, I have heard of Savage Species, and I'm suggesting that it's a mechanically superior way to model PCs with acquired templates.

Savage Species turns your monstrous humanoid fighter into a viable character, and your exotic race or caster character into a joke character that cannot take on monsters with CRs of half his level.