D&D 4E Why Vampires Suck in 3.X, and How 4e Can Fix Them

[Hella_Tellah]

Thats one side of this discusion and the OP's take. Another side is "Vampries are monsters and playable vampires feel the opposite direction of 4E's points of light ".

3.5 already has a mechanic for playing a vampire, it just sucks. If D&D retains the ability to become a vampire, it should be designed better. If 4e removes that, then vampires lose an important and iconic part of their essence: the ability to turn even a champion of light into a blood-sucking, fully sapient monster, who may not necessarily embrace the change. If an afflicted PC just turns NPC, then storyline choices are restricted and the ability to make other vampires becomes no different from any other domination mechanic.

 

[pemerton]

Problem: a ECL +0 and class-based approach... makes it something to look forward to, not something that needs to be "dealt with". Except for issues with the party paladin or cleric, that model makes vampirism no more a thing to be dealt with than being an elven fighter.

Call me old fashioned, but vampires are monsters. Same with lycanthropes. If you turn into a vampire, you are no longer the same person. Your mind and soul are rewritten. Otherwise, what's the point of trying to stop the werewolves? Why not just let [ieverybody become werewolves and then go on with life as usual? Where is the horror of vampires if it is just another way to be a moody goth?

These posts seem to run together the PC and the player in a slightly odd way. A vampire is a monster - but what has that got to do with the player, who may or may not be a moody goth? The OP's post obviously takes for granted that some people want to play monsters. This doesn't necessarily mean that those players are monsters. And even if the player is looking forward to their PC becoming a vampire (because that is the character they want to play) it does not follow that the PC is looking forward to becoming a vampire, nor that becoming a vampire is not something that (from the PC's point of view) needs to be "deal with".

And mechanically, the "deal with the devil" class (warlock) is fine, because that is just fluff to represent the class abilities. You're not getting something for nothing. You're not getting anything above and beyond your class abilities...your deal with the devil IS your class ability.

The OP's proposal is that vampirism should also be a suite of class abilities.

 

[Rechan]

Oh ... er ... sorry, never mind ... that was a pretty major case of reading snafu on my part then.
I guess it's because I somehow thought Warforged don't have a con score, or something similar.

Lessee. Warforged
- +2 Con, -2 Wis/Cha.
-Medium, 30 feet, does not have dark vision or lowlight vision.
-Subject to mind effecting spells.
-Immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain.
-Vulnerable against critical hits, non lethal damace, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects.
-Cannot heal naturally (but can be repaired with a craft check). Spells of the Healing subschool only give half points to warforged (repair spells give total HP recovery). Can be ressurrected and raised. When reduced to 0 HP, warforged go inert, rather than bleeding out (but can still be taken to -10 in this inert state).
-Subject to spells like repel metal, repeal rock and wood, rusting grasp, heat/chill metal, and the attacks of a rust monster.
-Do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can benefit from magical items that must be ingested (goodberries, potions). Despite not needing to sleep, a spellcaster must still rest 8 hours.
-Composit plating: Warforged have a +2 armor bonus. This armor is their body, and cannot be removed. They cannot wear artificial armor or a robe, but they can have their composit plate magically enhanced like regular armor. This plating subjects the warforged to a 5% arcane spell failure.
-Light fortification. 25% miss chance for critical hits/sneak attacks
-Natural slam attack (1d4).
-Favored class: Fighter.
LA +0.

 

[Rechan]

And he loses his con bonus, along with the benefit of con buffs and con boosting items. For wizards and maybe rogues it's a fair (but not actually good) tradeoff, for everyone else it's a disadvantage.
If that vampire character somehow ends up in a AoE, he is dead ash.

Not to mention that classes which have abilities that depend upon a con score (Barbarian), they are buggered.

 

[Rechan]

Thats one side of this discusion and the OP's take. Another side is "Vampries are monsters and playable vampires feel the opposite direction of 4E's points of light ".

Vampires = evil monsters that are in the opposite direction of 4e's Points of Light.
Warlocks and Tieflings = not monsters and totally in line with 4e's Points of Light.

The Points of Light is not 4e Setting Made in Stone. It's an implied setting, that the core rules don't reflect. It's fluff.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Not to mention that classes which have abilities that depend upon a con score (Barbarian), they are buggered.

They rage based on Charisma, for whatever reason. "Fear my barbaric force of personality!"

They still don't gain anything from the CON boost it provides, though.

 

[Imaro]

I'll throw my vote in with the "vampires are monsters" crew. If a player is turned into a vampire it shouldn't be a reward...I'd go so far as to say, it shouldn't even be a non-entity (as in no bad or good effect). If you make it ok to be a vampire or even beneficial, why is it a bad thing. Why wouldn't characters seek it out? Where is the horror in this, or even the fear in being changed? I really can't get behind the notion that everything in the gameworld should also be available to any player who wants it, especially when I'm rewarding them with cool, new powers for loosing a fight.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

I'll throw my vote in with the "vampires are monsters" crew. If a player is turned into a vampire it shouldn't be a reward...I'd go so far as to say, it shouldn't even be a non-entity (as in no bad or good effect). If you make it ok to be a vampire or even beneficial, why is it a bad thing. Why wouldn't characters seek it out? Where is the horror in this, or even the fear in being changed? I really can't get behind the notion that everything in the gameworld should also be available to any player who wants it, especially when I'm rewarding them with cool, new powers for loosing a fight.

Why shouldn't they be allowed to seek it out? There are plenty of stories in the horror genre of cultists and deluded souls seeking out vampires, asking to become one. Vampires get powerful abilities, and an evil PC should be able to choose that path, become corrupted by the power, etc. It needn't be all reward, either; they're still saddled with vulnerability to turning, an allergy to sunlight, and the need to feed.

 

[Anthtriel]

If you make it ok to be a vampire or even beneficial, why is it a bad thing. Why wouldn't characters seek it out? Where is the horror in this, or even the fear in being changed?

It heard it's kinda scary and painful to get your blood sucked out of you. And some people don't like turning into ash when exposed to sunlight. Some people believe turning into an undead monster makes you unpopular in your local village. Others think it's incompatible with their belief in the sun god.
Oh, and it's kind of annoying to get chased by angry mobs.


There are lots of reasons why a character wouldn't want to be a vampire. There are fewer why a player wouldn't want to play one. But you need DM consent anyway (someone needs to turn you into a vampire), so it shouldn't be too problematic.

 

[Imaro]

Why shouldn't they be allowed to seek it out? There are plenty of stories in the horror genre of cultists and deluded souls seeking out vampires, asking to become one. Vampires get powerful abilities, and an evil PC should be able to choose that path, become corrupted by the power, etc. It needn't be all reward, either; they're still saddled with vulnerability to turning, an allergy to sunlight, and the need to feed.

Sounds good...until you realize these very specific weaknesses do little to balance against it's bonuses over longterm play. Sounds like a power gamer's fantasy come true. You seem to have the impression that anyone who seeks this out will play the angst ridden, corrupted, anti-hero...now what happens when he decides to flex his new found power (like most players in the real world will) and punks the rest of the party, making them thralls?