D&D 4E Why Vancian spellcasting is good for the game (and should mostly be in 4e)

[Jupp]

Spell slots would still be ok for me. But if this memorize+fire+forget is still in 4e then I will houserule the memorize and forget part away, like I did in the last three editions. Wizards should be able to draw from all the resources they have available. The preparation of spells is just a nuisance that does not make the game more fun. And I wouldnt oppose a spell point system in 4e as well, perhaps as an option in the DMG.

 

[Felon]

I should note that Invisibility doesn't eclipse Move Silently. Being invisible doesn't make you any quieter.

Invisibility Eclipses HIDE.

To a certain degree, this is true. But you need to see something in order to identify it. Just hearing something you can't locate leaves a lot of creatures going "what was that?" and then they have to consider how to react to what might be nothing. There are some safeguards, but most of them (3e's take on scent, tremorsense, and blindsight) neutralize Hide and Move Silently as well as invisibility, rendering stealth largely altogether worthless.

 

[2WS-Steve]

In order to balance this with Rogue abilities, they really have to get rid of Indefinite Reusable Rings of Invisibility.

Alternately, just go back to the source fiction and make the ring of invisibility an artifact

 

[Rechan]

To a certain degree, this is true. But you need to see something in order to identify it. Just hearing something you can't locate leaves a lot of creatures going "what was that?" and then they have to consider how to react to what might be nothing. There are some safeguards, but most of them (3e's take on scent, tremorsense, and blindsight) neutralize Hide and Move Silently as well as invisibility, rendering stealth largely altogether worthless.

Again. In a world where magic is prevelent (and thus invisibility is a threat), an obvious option is there. Guards are stationed or patroll in 3s. One hears something, they all investigate. If they hear something, and it sounds suspicious, and they can't find the source, they get someone higher up. An NPC with UMD and an a 'Detect Magic' 2/day item, or the castle's spellcaster, or something.

This would prevent an invisible rogue from blitzing a guard before he can sound the alarm; if the invisible party attacks, at least one can flee to go alert everyone.

I just don't accept that magic like invisibility trumps so much. Like saying "Fly breaks the game because then someone can just fly over the wall into the castle's courtyard". Obvious solution: forts and castles don't have big gaping courtyards and huge open unlocked windows/doors along the towers/roofs.

Have a problem? Have your campaign world address it with internally consistent logic.

 

[Felon]

Again. In a world where magic is prevelent (and thus invisibility is a threat), an obvious option is there. Guards are stationed or patroll in 3s. One hears something, they all investigate. If they hear something, and it sounds suspicious, and they can't find the source, they get someone higher up. An NPC with UMD and an a 'Detect Magic' 2/day item, or the castle's spellcaster, or something.

This is "obvious"? Who is this option obvious to? How is it obvious to them? There's quite a gap between "magic is prevalent" and "everyone's familiar with PHB spells and knows all manner of ways to short-circuit spellcasting interlopers". D&D is a game in a pseudo-medieval world with no internet or other modes of conveniently sharing a large body of knowledge with a large groups of people (even with magic), where most folks' knowledge is limited to personal experience. Not everybody's been attacked by an invisible or flying opponent. Maybe there are some military schools that teach that sort of stuff, but characters with that kind of handy knowledge should be the exception, not the rule.

If you're running Sons of Gruumsh or Against the Giants, for instance, you're dealing with enemies that expect every attack to involve a show of force. Their mindset just isn't on the ramifications of invisibility and fly and baleful transposition and silence. I don't think it's obvious to Gork the orc chieftan--who may never have never encountered an invisible foe--to instruct his guards to have some SOP in place that entails grabbing some mage whenever there's a suspicious noise.

Have a problem? Have your campaign world address it with internally consistent logic.

Suffice to say, that kind of "internally consistent logic" can quickly start to seem pretty spurious to a lot of folks. When every class of enemy thinks like a dungeonmaster, and has a deep understanding of the adventurer's playbook, that goes beyond what the notion of "magic is prevalent" allows for.

 

[Rechan]

Suffice to say, your "internally consistent logic" can quickly seem pretty spurious to a lot of folks. Every class of enemy isn't going to think like a dungeonmaster, and have a deep understanding of the adventurer's playbook.

Of course not. Humans in a civilized world, hobgoblins (militaristic and intelligent), very intelligent monsters (Illithids, vampires, dragons, drow, etc).

A pack of goblins or giants aren't. But those aren't going to have hefty spot and listen checks to begin with.

There's a gap between "magic is prevalent" and "everyone's familiar with PHB spells and knows all manner of ways to short-circuit spellcasting interlopers".

Who said anything about "Everyone"? I don't expect joe farmer to know the difference between fireball and flame strike, or even the grunt standing outside the door. I damn well expect the Lord's adviser to. I expect a captain of the guard to have a level or two in expert for skills like spot and listen in addition to Knowledge (Bla) or Profesion (Guard), and awareness of magical means to bypass security would go under Profession (Guard).

D&D is a game in a pseudo-medieval world where most folks' knowledge is limited to personal experience.

Any professional guards would have been trained to deal with magical-wielding foes just like guards before were trained to deal with stealthy foes. If the Lord can afford a small company of armed guards, he can damn well afford a wizard adviser who knows a thing or two about 2nd level spells. That goes double for any castle or warehouse with "high security" merchandise stored.

It's really simple. If everyone in the world knows that anybody can become invisible if they have the resources, then anyone with anything worth protecting will take an effort to prevent it.

If people in your campaign world have an idea of what a beholder can do or a troll can do or a dragon can do simply by stories and legends, then they should have a general grasp of what a wizard can do.

NPCs taking the means to deal with invisible burglars is no different than current-day establishments using security cameras. Because a skilled thief or operative knows how to deal with them and bypass them.

If you want to play in Arthurian-land, go ahead, but then don't have wizards and sorcerers in your game because spellcasters throwing around meteor swarm isn't appropriate to the game, and neither is throwing invisibility all over everyone. D&D as it stands isn't equipped to deal with low magic worlds, because everyone needs magical items to function at levels beyond fifth, let alone the power and flash of spellcasting classes.

And if Invisibility makes sneaking into anywhere a cake walk, then having a +8 to MS and Hide must make it a cake walk too. Because any place that can't equip their guards to deal with invisible foes can't afford to have guards with antyhing more than a +3 to listen and spot.

If I'm sneaking into some place bigger than a bandit camp or goblin cave, I expect the DM to run it like I was James Bond infiltrating enemy headquarters. Because just slapping on an Invisibility and strolling in is, in my opinion, not fun at all.

 

[Felon]

Of course not. Humans in a civilized world, hobgoblins (militaristic and intelligent), very intelligent monsters (Illithids, vampires, dragons, drow, etc).

OK, that's about the extent that I can see having elaborate anti-spell countermeasures in place.

If you want to play in Arthurian-land, go ahead, but then don't have wizards and sorcerers in your game because spellcasters throwing around meteor swarm isn't appropriate to the game, and neither is throwing invisibility all over everyone.

As I said, I think there's a difference between having a world where folks are aware of spellcasting and have heard rumors of spellcasting capabilities and having a world where the enemy's got training, intel, and resources like something out of a Tom Clancy novel or Bourne movie. I wouldn't start getting to that extreme until near-epic levels, and even then I'd be cognizant that that style of play grows very cloying to players very quickly.

 

[Rechan]

As I said, I think there's a difference between having in a world where folks are aware of spellcasting and have heard rumors of spellcasting capabilities and having a world where the enemy's got training, intel, and resources like something out of a Tom Clancy novel or Bourne movie. I wouldn't start getting to that extreme until near-epic levels, and even then I'd be cognizant that that style of play grows very cloying to players very quickly.

Then I guess we just have radically different ideas as to what a fantasy world is.

 

[Felon]

Mm-kay.

 

[hong]

In a world where Invisibility is accessable to any wizard at 3rd level, any Sorcerer at 4th, and any rogue with UMD,

... ie, 3E. Hopefully this will change in 4E.

Invisibility should be a tool, not a trump card.

... ie, it should leverage your existing skills. Like Hide.