Why we like plot: Our Job as DMs

Vampire's rules are simulationist. Although it bills itself as a storytelling game, the storytelling isn't supported by the rules. This is the Forge's big bone of contention with the game. It's not even particularly rules light imo.

I wasn't saying anything about simulationist versus dramatist. I am not a Forgie at all, and I do not think GNS labels are very useful. The taxonomy I am using has two categories:

- Fantasy wargames: Explore the world, resolution is realistical and simulation-based
- Storytelling RPGs: Explore a story, resolution is dramatic and trope-based

Obviously, a storytelling game can be rules-heavy and mechanistic, and it can certainly meet the GNS definition of a genre-simulation game.

But even the Forge doesn't use GNS anymore. GNS could never really get a grip on immersion, and of course, when we are talking about the job of the GM, we are precisely talking on the immersive experience of the player.
 

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What would Batman's motive be in using deadly force, if he knows that he will win if he does not use deadly force?

What would Batman's motive be in sacrificing an innocent bystander, if he knows that he will win if he does not sacrifice an innocent bystander?

What would Batman's motive be in giving up a love interest, if he knows that he will win if he does not give up a love interest?

What would Batman's motive be in giving up anything, if he knows that he will win if he does not give up anything?

Because not getting killed by the Joker does NOT mean that Batman wins! Batman surviving to the end of the story is not a victory condition!

If Batman doesn't sacrifice some innocent bystanders, the Joker might get away.

If Batman doesn't give up his love interest, the Joker might kill her.

Batman might not win, in that the Joker will kill a bunch of people, laugh about it, and get away scot-free. The people of Gotham will live in fear of the Joker, and lose faith in the Dark Knight to protect them, possibly even turning against him.

Does that make more sense?

Neither you nor I need to be interested in the finale; my point has nothing to do with being interested in the finale. It has to do with the logical prerequisites to the questions above having meaning. Even within the frame of a story, the questions have meaning because, although the reader knows Batman will win, Batman does not.

No they don't. The reader knows no such thing, because again, not getting killed by the Joker is not a win. Stopping the Joker is a win. You can not be killed by the Joker, but his nefarious plan still goes through.

And the player can realize something that the character does not. Metagaming isn't a bad thing.
 

Because not getting killed by the Joker does NOT mean that Batman wins! Batman surviving to the end of the story is not a victory condition!

Did I say it was?

I said that if Batman's victory (whatever victory conditions you like) is not in question, then there is no game. A game only exists when there are unknown variables that affect the outcome, regardless of what the victory conditions may be.

"[T]he Joker might get away", "the Joker might kill her", and "the Joker will kill a bunch of people, laugh about it, and get away scot-free" are all ways by which Batman might fail, as you yourself note. So long as this is true, victory is not assured, and there can be a game (rather than just storytelling).

Nobody dies in Monopoly; Monopoly is still a game. Games rely upon the existence of unknown variables (even if those variables have no element of chance, such as an opponent's moves in a game of chess) that leave the conclusion (victory conditions) in doubt. They do not rely, AFAICT, upon what the victory conditions are. In the cooperative game, Bus Depot Diner, for example, the victory conditions are "Feed as many people as you can before the bus leaves the depot; try to do better than your previous best score".

(specific games might rely on specific victory or loss conditions, such as checkmate in chess, obviously.)



RC
 
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It is the words "hoping to take him with me" that make this a game. Otherwise ("taking him with me"), it is collaborative storytelling.
But I didn't mean it that way. I mean it that this was his assumption what would happen. The game rules wouldn't tell him. The DM might have another plan for him - Joker and Batman ending up crippled or something like that.
 

But I didn't mean it that way. I mean it that this was his assumption what would happen. The game rules wouldn't tell him. The DM might have another plan for him - Joker and Batman ending up crippled or something like that.

Then the DM is taking the part of the game rules -- providing the unknown variables that are required to have a game. It doesn't matter what agency makes achieving the victory conditions unknown; what matters is that the victory conditions cannot be automatically achieved simply by sitting at the table.



RC
 

"[T]he Joker might get away", "the Joker might kill her", and "the Joker will kill a bunch of people, laugh about it, and get away scot-free" are all ways by which Batman might fail, as you yourself note. So long as this is true, victory is not assured, and there can be a game (rather than just storytelling).

RC


Consider however that the GM can present the illusion of a game to the players, but in reality it is storytelling driven by the players. It doesn't have to be a railroad. it can all be the player's choice. But it can be run such that the players PERCIEVE that failure is a risk, but the GM can mitigate that risk in order to have the players come out on top.

Done poorly, it could be a crappy game. Done well, the players are happy.

My long-time GM is famous for making every session be the biggest challenge we've ever had. Defeat is always imminent, and we always come up with a plan and save the day. Are we really that good, or is he doing what the OP originally described, fulfilling our fantasy.

Our GM is also famous for predicting our actions at major decision points. He's almost never surprised. He's famous for saying, "I knew you guys were going to react that way, that's why I didn't bother planning on the alternatives." It almost always works out that way. He knows his players and their PCs. He knows how to present the problem such that we'll bite and how we'll probably approach it. Then he writes down what he needs for that path. And it works out every time.
 


As the GM, my job is to make is to make sure that when the Batman takes down the Joker, it's because he earned it, not because his name is on the cover.
Why does Batman win? It's a very interesting question, with a lot of different answers.

1) Because he's the hero. This can be further broken down into:
1a) Because he's the protagonist.
1b) Because he's morally superior to the Joker.
2) Because he's more capable than the Joker. This could also be broken down:
2a) His natural talents are superior.
2b) He's better trained.
2c) He has better resources and equipment. Ironically, Batman didn't 'earn' these at all - his vast wealth is inherited.
3) Superior preparation. This is closely related to 2b, arguably it's the same category.
4) Because he made the right decisions during the conflict.
5) Luck.

I think (1a) is the real answer. The two foes are actually rather mismatched. Batman is a billionaire, with ten years of training by the world's best martial artists and an arsenal of weapons at his disposal. The Joker is a skinny lunatic in a fright wig. Ofc the writers have to make the battle a close run thing every time for reasons of dramatic tension.

There are analogies for most of these in roleplaying games. Batman might win just because he's a player character. Presumably the GM fudges die rolls or uses the many other resources at his disposal, such as his discretion in setting DCs and the like, to ensure (or make very likely) Batman's win. Alternatively, the system itself might make the PCs stronger than the opposition. There is a crossover into (2) here. Are the PCs better just because they are PCs or is there another, or additional, explanation?

Moral superiority leading to victory is something that occurs rarely, if ever, in rpgs. An example might be Pendragon where certain personality traits, such as Chastity, grant a bonus for being a good Christian.

The PCs winning because they are simply better than the opposition is, imo, by far the most common form of victory in rpgs, including D&D. The adventurers just have better numbers than the orcs, or whatever they are fighting. There are various ways they might have achieved these superior numbers -
i) Granted by system or GM.
ii) Min/maxing. This is, imo, an example of player skill, though a different kind of skill than I think Korgoth is talking about.
iii) Lucky die rolls for stats.
iv) Cheating.

Superior preparation is analogous to adventure-level planning, mostly non-system stuff, though there could be some system manipulation here, or a player could use out-of-character knowledge, like taking a flask of acid to deal with trolls.

4e is very strong on (4) - the PCs winning because the players made the right decisions in combat. In 3e it's easier to win at the character build stage.

The obvious analogy to luck is the dice rolls the PCs make during combat, rolls to hit, damage and so forth.
 
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There are two ways to approach the Batman problem:

Approach 1: Batman wins because his player is very shrewd and skillful; he makes excellent choices in every relevant sphere (problem solving, tactics, interaction, etc.). The player has built Batman up to a powerful level and he is always on his game. The game tests the skill of Batman's player, and he is never found wanting... he is a top notch player.

Approach 2: Batman wins because his name is "Batman". Even an absolute n00b to the game will always win with Batman, because Batman has the "I Win" skill with infinity ranks in it. The choices in the game, if any, do not determine victory (a foregone conclusion), but only what happens on the way to that inevitable victory.

So, in Approach 1 only the best of the best ever get to succeed at a roleplaying game, and even then when they're only on their game. Success in roleplaying is only for the true elite, and only on a good day.

The rest of us losers are stuck with Approach 2, I guess.
 

So, in Approach 1 only the best of the best ever get to succeed at a roleplaying game, and even then when they're only on their game. Success in roleplaying is only for the true elite, and only on a good day.


I think it is implicit that the kind of success Batman achieves (at least in the comics) is far & beyond what ordinary people consider success. It is a sort of uber-success.

One can succeed in a role-playing game without succeeding like Batman succeeds. It is the expectation to always succeed as Batman succeeds that is being examined.


RC
 

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