I'm sorry, but I have to put my foot down and boycott WotC products from now on. Pulling two treasured gaming resources out form under our noses with little or no warning is completely unacceptable. I know they want to make money like any other company, but ending the publication of Dungeon and Dragon so they won't compete with their new "online" project is just plain wrong. I'll subscribe to Pathfinder and maybe get some WotC products from ebay, but the days of me directly supporting WotC with my hard-earned money are over.
Why Wizards Has Lost Touch w/ Its Base
- Thread starter Sholari
- Start date
- Status
Hobo said:
Maybe you missed that I said "the gaming population that are most involved in getting their gaming resources from the internet."
I think you're very much underestimating the general ill-will that this move has engendered amongst the very people WotC were hoping would be their e-content customers.
Desdichado
Hero
No, I didn't miss that at all. I'm still estimating the folks who are doing most of the complaining as a just a few hundred across here and WotC.Ourph said:
And I guess we'll see who's estimation is wrong soon enough, since both are completely speculative anyway.
mhensley
First Post
The Shaman said:
The first step toward enlightenment for wotc will be when their profits plunge due to their alienation of my demographic- you know, the 30-50 yo group that has most of the money to spend on toys. Even though all of the guys I play with are in their early 20's, I easily outspend the entire group put together. And that's even when I'm not the dm.
The_Gneech
Explorer
I dunno, the idea that a customer who spends $50/mo for six months is better than a customer who spends $25/mo for decades, seems kinda spurious to me. :\
(And yes, those figures were pulled out of the air, they're just to make the point. Hush, nitpickers.)
-The Gneech
(And yes, those figures were pulled out of the air, they're just to make the point. Hush, nitpickers.)
-The Gneech
jaerdaph
#UkraineStrong
I remember filling out that online survey at WotC's Website last year. 40+ age bracket, highest household income level, lowest dollar amount spent at WotC. I only bought three WotC products last year - d20 Modern Critical Locations, d20 Dark*Matter and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (mainly for nostalga). d20 Modern is essentially defunct, so they've lost me there. I haven't played straight D&D in some time, and most of my purchases are for d20 Modern (third party) and True20. I haven't had Dungeon or Dragon subscriptions for a few years now. I've recently discovered some really great new games that aren't d20/OGL, and I've revived some old ones like LUG Trek.
I realize I am no longer part of WotC's customer base and I'm fine with it. I still enjoy playing RPGs and they aren't going anywhere.
Now when everyone tells me the sky is falling (again), I just say "put it over there with the others."
I am a little shocked though at the amount of personal attacks and nasty comments that are being tossed around EN World so casually over the cancellation of a couple of magazines for a game. I hope everyone can try to remember that it's just a game. Yes it's a great game that had support in great magazines, but at the end of the day, it's just a game. There are far more pressing issues in the world to get ourselves worked up over.
I'll get off my moral high horse now because nobody likes that. Let's just try to treat each other with respect, even if we don't agree with what they say. We're talking about a game here and games are supposed to be fun and enjoyable.
Peace.
I realize I am no longer part of WotC's customer base and I'm fine with it. I still enjoy playing RPGs and they aren't going anywhere.
Now when everyone tells me the sky is falling (again), I just say "put it over there with the others."
I am a little shocked though at the amount of personal attacks and nasty comments that are being tossed around EN World so casually over the cancellation of a couple of magazines for a game. I hope everyone can try to remember that it's just a game. Yes it's a great game that had support in great magazines, but at the end of the day, it's just a game. There are far more pressing issues in the world to get ourselves worked up over.
I'll get off my moral high horse now because nobody likes that. Let's just try to treat each other with respect, even if we don't agree with what they say. We're talking about a game here and games are supposed to be fun and enjoyable.
Peace.
Too good a value? Picking pockets? You have an odd view of how the world works. An oddly indignant view.Steel_Wind said:
If a product is "too good a value" for customers and it gets pulled from the market, it is likely not a good value at all for the producer.
I feel like you need to hear a few words from Evil Kirk.Steel_Wind said:
AGFlynn
First Post
A diatribe: Some D&D/WOTC perspective from a media hack
The whole trouble with D&D, if there's trouble, is that it is now a subsidiary line of a subsidiary that is owned by a large company.
I can't say I'm surprised they dumped the magazines in the first place -- that's the trend with printed media these days anyhow.
I'm the assistant business editor at a national wire service, owned by newspapers and providing content to online agencies, radio and TV. We all know that papers and magazines are hit hard by the major paradigm shift brought about by the Internet. Ad linage (money paid by advertisers) is dropping, so is circulation. I'll miss the mags, but honestly can't say I found much value in later editions of Dragon.
Anyhoo, here's my take on WOTC, from a gaming (since 1974) perspective and as a game content developer and business journalist:
D&D is in the wrong hands.
To be clear, I think WOTC does some things very well indeed. When they publish a good and useful sourcebook, it is a polished thing o' beauty. I like the whole 3.0/3.5 core ruleset -- bitch as we might about the complexity of the post-AD&D rules, they seem to be workable for many of us -- and the recent compendiums are a boon. In general, there's lots of flexibility, room to build new content.
But a large portion of what WOTC has published since it bought TSR is pure dross. Player's Handbook II? DMG II? Dungeon Survival Guide? Dozens of splatbooks and supplements with mediocre content? This speaks to me of corporate pressure to produce product that will constantly generate revenue. It's good solid business thinking.
But D&D was created in a different spirit by Saints Gygax and Arneson. We don't really need all of this supplementary stuff, though I'm OK with the world-building being done with FR and Eberron. Back in the day, all we needed were the core rulebooks, and maybe a module or two. We actually created everything else we needed. And that's a big part of the fun of the game. It was creative. We didn't need to consult an SRD for the latest errata on a complex set of rules. We made it up. And we were happy. The OGL side of things has blossomed precisely because of that.
Here's where I think there's a breakdown.
WOTC cut its teeth on collectable card games, and a lot of the CCG ethos has rubbed off on its products. The miniatures game is essentially a CCG in 3D plastic. A great idea, because new miniature sets = new revenue, just as it does with Magic the Gathering. But is it D&D? Not in my book. It makes money that supports the whole product line and -- look,we've come full circle! -- in part funds the development of more mediocre splat.
So...
D&D needs to get back in TSR mode.
No, no! Not the money losing TSR mode. Before that.
The game would get its mojo back if an independent publisher bought the product line from WOTC. And believe me, I've scoured Hasbro's financial statements to see if I could put a price on it. Bought in 1997 for $25 million (although $30 million in debt). What would the games rule component be worth now, exclusive of the minis game, novels and other minor properties? Probably about the same. Anyone knows different, let me know. That's peanuts in the modern venture financing world. Why, if all the ENWorlders out there each put in $1,000, we could proably find a backer for the rest.
Independence means less access to perks such as top-flight editors. But hell, who cares? We have the Internet to hash out errata now. Jeez, with all those editors, WOTC even floated a whole new .5 edition and nobody blinked (much).
Well, if I win the lottery...
The point is, D&D doesn't need to be run by a megacorp. Sure, WOTC gets credit for keeping the ol' thing alive, but now its the suits and not the geeks in charge. Even if they are geeks in suits, they still utlimately answer to a higher power. If you think the upper Hasbro management isn't looming over the shoulder of the D&D (if with full concealment), think again. Those guys are sharp. They will dilute the content, force products with no regard to the game's pedigree, cut staff to the minimum needed to produce a viable product and nuke it when it fails to turn a profit. Which is where all of this seems to be leading. From TSR to WOTC to Hasbro -- then what? Hasbro made a $230 million profit in 2006 on revenues of $3.15 billion. Do you really think they give a rats ass about this tiny little corner of the empire?
Insert thrilling conclusion here....
Well, we'll see what happens next. My guess is that WOTC will come out with a fourth edition down the road that attempts to blend and/or compete with the CCGs and minis games, everybody will be completely ambivalent, nobody will buy it and the D&D line will lose WOTC a chunk o' cash. And then they will sell it or kill it.
Join me my brothers and sisters in dice in waiting for that day -- and plotting. If D&D goes on the block at a discount I will be furiously contemplating how to buy the damn thing. Maybe we, the diehard (PHBp.93) fans, should start planning now, buidling up a contingency fund, maliciously eyeing fragile, old rich relatives. Maybe we should ready an action and take back our game.
Well, if you read this far, thanks for reading my screed. I'm going to go and drop some fresh tears on my old White Box edition.
Andrew Flynn
The whole trouble with D&D, if there's trouble, is that it is now a subsidiary line of a subsidiary that is owned by a large company.
I can't say I'm surprised they dumped the magazines in the first place -- that's the trend with printed media these days anyhow.
I'm the assistant business editor at a national wire service, owned by newspapers and providing content to online agencies, radio and TV. We all know that papers and magazines are hit hard by the major paradigm shift brought about by the Internet. Ad linage (money paid by advertisers) is dropping, so is circulation. I'll miss the mags, but honestly can't say I found much value in later editions of Dragon.
Anyhoo, here's my take on WOTC, from a gaming (since 1974) perspective and as a game content developer and business journalist:
D&D is in the wrong hands.
To be clear, I think WOTC does some things very well indeed. When they publish a good and useful sourcebook, it is a polished thing o' beauty. I like the whole 3.0/3.5 core ruleset -- bitch as we might about the complexity of the post-AD&D rules, they seem to be workable for many of us -- and the recent compendiums are a boon. In general, there's lots of flexibility, room to build new content.
But a large portion of what WOTC has published since it bought TSR is pure dross. Player's Handbook II? DMG II? Dungeon Survival Guide? Dozens of splatbooks and supplements with mediocre content? This speaks to me of corporate pressure to produce product that will constantly generate revenue. It's good solid business thinking.
But D&D was created in a different spirit by Saints Gygax and Arneson. We don't really need all of this supplementary stuff, though I'm OK with the world-building being done with FR and Eberron. Back in the day, all we needed were the core rulebooks, and maybe a module or two. We actually created everything else we needed. And that's a big part of the fun of the game. It was creative. We didn't need to consult an SRD for the latest errata on a complex set of rules. We made it up. And we were happy. The OGL side of things has blossomed precisely because of that.
Here's where I think there's a breakdown.
WOTC cut its teeth on collectable card games, and a lot of the CCG ethos has rubbed off on its products. The miniatures game is essentially a CCG in 3D plastic. A great idea, because new miniature sets = new revenue, just as it does with Magic the Gathering. But is it D&D? Not in my book. It makes money that supports the whole product line and -- look,we've come full circle! -- in part funds the development of more mediocre splat.
So...
D&D needs to get back in TSR mode.
No, no! Not the money losing TSR mode. Before that.
The game would get its mojo back if an independent publisher bought the product line from WOTC. And believe me, I've scoured Hasbro's financial statements to see if I could put a price on it. Bought in 1997 for $25 million (although $30 million in debt). What would the games rule component be worth now, exclusive of the minis game, novels and other minor properties? Probably about the same. Anyone knows different, let me know. That's peanuts in the modern venture financing world. Why, if all the ENWorlders out there each put in $1,000, we could proably find a backer for the rest.
Independence means less access to perks such as top-flight editors. But hell, who cares? We have the Internet to hash out errata now. Jeez, with all those editors, WOTC even floated a whole new .5 edition and nobody blinked (much).
Well, if I win the lottery...
The point is, D&D doesn't need to be run by a megacorp. Sure, WOTC gets credit for keeping the ol' thing alive, but now its the suits and not the geeks in charge. Even if they are geeks in suits, they still utlimately answer to a higher power. If you think the upper Hasbro management isn't looming over the shoulder of the D&D (if with full concealment), think again. Those guys are sharp. They will dilute the content, force products with no regard to the game's pedigree, cut staff to the minimum needed to produce a viable product and nuke it when it fails to turn a profit. Which is where all of this seems to be leading. From TSR to WOTC to Hasbro -- then what? Hasbro made a $230 million profit in 2006 on revenues of $3.15 billion. Do you really think they give a rats ass about this tiny little corner of the empire?
Insert thrilling conclusion here....
Well, we'll see what happens next. My guess is that WOTC will come out with a fourth edition down the road that attempts to blend and/or compete with the CCGs and minis games, everybody will be completely ambivalent, nobody will buy it and the D&D line will lose WOTC a chunk o' cash. And then they will sell it or kill it.
Join me my brothers and sisters in dice in waiting for that day -- and plotting. If D&D goes on the block at a discount I will be furiously contemplating how to buy the damn thing. Maybe we, the diehard (PHBp.93) fans, should start planning now, buidling up a contingency fund, maliciously eyeing fragile, old rich relatives. Maybe we should ready an action and take back our game.
Well, if you read this far, thanks for reading my screed. I'm going to go and drop some fresh tears on my old White Box edition.
Andrew Flynn
Last edited:
TheYeti1775
Adventurer
Maybe only a few hundred are posting on the threads, but how many are watching them?Hobo said:
Now take into account the fact the majority of the 'vocal' ones on these boards influence purchase descions of others that respect their opinion.
Right now there are just over 2300 online for EnWorld alone. That's not just a drop in the bucket to any company out there.
Add this onto all of WOTC's actions of late and you can see how tempers have been smoldering for some time.
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