Why would a dragon NOT take Antimagic field?

[TarionzCousin]

We had a DM insist that every dragon would do just that - just drop giant rocks like bombs from beyond spell range.

I'm going to venture a guess that you don't have that guy/gal DM any more.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

My epic campaign is currently quite dracocentric, and I wondered why a dragon with a sufficiently high caster level would not select Antimagic Field as one of his level 6 spells.

Give a dragon this spell, and play him properly as a DM, i.e., according to the dragon's high intelligence score, the creature would kill even an epic party in most encounters. I am asking because my group of 6 epic PCs (level 25) will encounter a very old dragon with potential access to Antimagic Field soon...

The chance to dispel an Antimagic Field for a caster with CL 25 is just a mere 25 %, and only possible with Mordenkainen's Disjunction when cast OUTSIDE the Antimagic Field!

Take a very old red dragon: CR 21, size G, CL 13, grapple +56, attack +40, maybe it has taken the standard dragon-related feats which are snatch and fly-by attack.

Antimagic Field is an emanation with a radius of 10 ft, duration 10 min/CL. A gargantuan creature like the very old red dargon covers a space of 20x20 ft, and would fit into the AF (using common sense by assuming that the dragon is not a Borg cube...).

In the open field, the dragon attacks the party after casting AF, aiming his attack to the guy who is not obviously heavily armored or carry big keen weapons. The chance of failing in the attack is just 5% (rolled a 1), the same holds for a failed grapple attempt... In the next rounds, the dragon just circles away with one adventurer in his grasp, who is now waiting to be eaten. Once this is done, the dragon returns...
Rinse, repeat... until the remaining party either fled by magical means or was killed.

In tight spaces where the dragon cannot fly, AF still takes out the party casters, and the dragon would focus all attacks on the fighter types: attack, grapple, chop suey (because the cleric can't heal the grappled guy because of the AF).

The only reason for NOT giving AF to old dragons is probably gameplay and fun... unless the DM wants to force a TPK.

Any ideas for other useful and/or appropriate spells, but that make old dragons not deadly outright?

Well since the dragon is a 13th level sorcerer, I would take a crap ton of buff spells and just have him buffed to all hell when the combat begins.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I'm going to venture a guess that you don't have that guy/gal DM any more.

Nope. This was also the guy that insisted when we were making "play yourself" characters that he should have a natural 19 for his intelligence back in 2E days. (but, then had to ask another guy or me for help when doing basic math ("my guy has 21 hit points and takes 8 damage... how much do I have left?")

 

[Dark Dragon]

Well since the dragon is a 13th level sorcerer, I would take a crap ton of buff spells and just have him buffed to all hell when the combat begins.

That would give him some punch for maybe the first two rounds. But it is more book-keeping for the DM, especially when the first Greater Dispelling is incoming... I've done such buffing scenarios earlier in epic campaigns, but there is now something like a gentleman's agreement IMG to refrain from SBT (or BST ) .

 

[NewJeffCT]

Thanks a lot, I really like some of your ideas. Others I've already used, like the one of point 1), where the dragon Balagos showed some epic PCs their true position in hierarchy.

For the conjuring spells, the orbs may work (a bit cheesy, but still they should work). But that is one reason why a dragon in an AMF would kill the caster first, if possible. And on open ground, this is quite easy to achieve: fly-by, snatch, kill...

To point 4), this only works if the dragon is somehow forced to fight on the ground. And even being epic, a caster is mostly not a good frontline guy.
Artefacts: yes, the party has an evil artefact in their possession, but its powers won't neccessarily work in an AMF, and more, because it is an evil item, the PC using it strongly risks his alignment and eventually will go insane.

Playing the dragon as a bomber using big rocks as bombs is a nice scenario, especially when employed near an active volcano (as is the case in my camapign).

Playing off the beholder idea, I was a "guest" DM in a high magic 2E campaign many years ago and ran a memorable encounter. The players were in the level 8 or 9 range if I recall and were traveling through the Underdark. They went down a corridor perfectly sized for a beholder's anti-magic ray, which it hit them with. The beholder also had a pair of troll bodyguards to keep the PCs from getting too close, and high up the ledges of the corridor lurked two score kobolds, all armed with shortbows. So, the kobolds launched arrows down on the de-magicked players. It was a really fun encounter, as these players were so used to be power players in the Forgotten Realms, and they were being slowly wittled down by pitiful kobolds. The party ended up being saved by the heroics of one PC, who charged the trolls and managed to take one down and move himself into being able to attack the beholder, and eventually threaten it enough that it had to turn off its anti-magic ray and use other attacks on the PC - which freed up the rest of the party and allowed the wizard to fireball the kobolds, the ranger to attack the other troll, etc.

But, you can have the dragon's lair be an anti-magic zone and have it surrounded by ogres who can grapple the PCs, and goblins, who can pepper the PCs with arrows.

 

[N'raac]

Hmm, that sounds like a house rule (fair enough to work like that), but going by the RAW, a dragon's flight is not magical (see MM and Draconomicon).

Same for the -5 penalty to AC and attacks. A dragon's AC and attacks are not lowered within an AMF.

While I find the idea of self combustion in an AMF a nice one to discourage the use of AMF, a dragon's immunities are Extraordinary (see SRD), and thus are not suppressed in an AMF.

I fully agree that house rules would get around excessive use of AMF by dragons, but I don't want to implement a new house roule in mid-game.

Plus, all these reasons the Dragon won't use AMF seem like great reasons for the PC's to use it against the Dragon...

 

[NuSair]

Depending on what you allow and don't.... there is a spell that allows for casting inside anti magic. I believe it's called Invoke Magic (9th level spell).

Also something to keep in mind is that artifacts are not affected by anti magic. (I'd guess a party of 25th level adventurers might have some)

 

[Dark Dragon]

This is a great example of why I really don't like DMing high level games... The next step for me is trying to either come up with a reason the obvious tactic is never used, or to figure out how the game world would have evolved if it was regularly used and then I bog down. Trying to convince myself to just let it go never seems to work.



Dragon lore would be written by surviving adventurers, surviving dragons, or liars, right? ;-)

So true, but still I like DMing high-level parties... if some agreements and house rules are accepted.

Using the rocks as a way of attack seems fair, but may be considered the way of a coward (which dragons are mostly not, because it would admit that they could be bested by "inferior" creatures like humans). However, if the survival of the dragon and/or its nest and hoard are at stake: why not fighting dirty? As you said: lore is written by the survivors (aka winners).

As a counter measure to the rock attack, I think of using Forcecage (barred cage), Wall of Stone, Resilient Sphere, Improved Invisisbility (so the dragon has to come within 60 ft to locate the foes), Control Winds (strong winds will affect a dragon's flight options), Secure Shelter (works less against siege attacks, but stil...).

 

[Dark Dragon]

Depending on what you allow and don't.... there is a spell that allows for casting inside anti magic. I believe it's called Invoke Magic (9th level spell).

Also something to keep in mind is that artifacts are not affected by anti magic. (I'd guess a party of 25th level adventurers might have some)

Lords of Madness where Invoke Magic is described is not used so far IMG, but I tend to give an unusual spell to the party sometimes. Still, the spell is very expensive, and allows only ONE casting of a spell of 4th or lower level. Better than nothing, though...

 

[Derren]

Why should you invent reasons not to use this tactic? Use it and let the PCs figure out how to deal with it. Its not as if this is a super secret tactic which relies on DM fiat. Same applies to the bomber tactic.
Imo its pretty boring when you hand everything to the PCs on a silver platter.