Why wouldn't a Cleric or Sorcerer take a PrC?

[ruleslawyer]

Losing turning ability is definitely a big deal, IMHO.

Also, as Victim mentioned, both clerics and sorcs have a hard time accumulating the skill ranks and feats required to take divine PrCs.

That said, I sort of think of cleric as a "prestigious" enough class all the way through that the only cleric-suited PrCs I allow IMC are the divine agent (MotP), divine disciple (FRCS), and hierophant (FRCS). The latter entails a BIG sacrifice: you not only lose turning advancement, but also don't gain spellcasting ability. The divine agent requires you to give up a few levels of spellcasting advancement, so that's a bit of a sacrifice. The DD is practically a must-have, though. My view on this class, though, is that it's sort of a natural progression for a cleric: advancing to the point of directly serving your deity as an outsider servant.

As for the sorc: As others have said, appropriate sorc PrCs are practically de rigeur for introducing flavor to the sorc, who at high levels becomes a bit of a bore. Elemental savant, mindbender, acolyte of the skin: all add flavor.

 

[Crothian]

Well, one should only go to a prestige class if it fits the character. Metagaming many people will go out of their way to create these reasons.

I've had only one cleric and one Sorcerer in any of my games. The Sorcerer never took a prestige class, and the Cleric took a homemade one that was a specialty for the religion.

 

[Victim]

Actually, I think my cleric's skills are still screwed up because of the Divine Disciple class. I never thought that a few skill points would hurt so bad. My experience with the class has made me rethink my evaluations of some PrCs and class design. So far, the only thing my character has gotten from the class is the ability to make Holy weapons, via the extra good domain. However, that's almost worth it by itself.

Themed sorcerers definitely better themselves by taking a theme prestige class like the Mindbender, but I think that's kind of fitting in some way.

 

[GrassyKnoll]

I intend to take Divine Disciple at the next level (very soon to 9th at the moment), then at level 11 go the way of the Contemplative.

I went through all the pluses and bonuses and my way seems to be the best progression as opposed to be a straight Cleric.

Forgive me for any slight mistakes in the following post, doing it from memeory, with no notes or books in front of me.

9th Cleric: +d8 hps, +1 BAB, +1 reflex, 5th spells, advancement in turning, +6 skill points

8th Cleric/1st Divine Disciple: +d6 hps, +2 Fort, +0 BAB, 5th Spells, no turning advancement, additional Domain (taking Dwarf which gives +2 Fort saves) and communication abilities with Outsiders, +? +2 Skill points.

So, losing 1hp, 1 BAB and turning advancement, I gain +4 Fort, a new domain, and communication with Outsiders.

Plus my Cha is only 10 as well.....heh, seems all the above Clerics have poor Cha, not all Dwarves are we?

 

[bret]

Going Sorcerer, it makes a lot of sense to pick up a PrC. Take it for the skills, since the Sorc skill list is so poor.

I haven't tried it, but the Mage of the Arcane Order looks like a pretty good deal for Sorcerers. Get to call up spells from the spellpool, which goes a long way towards getting around the limited number of spells known. Get much better selection of class skills. You even get two bonus feats, which makes up for the two required to enter the class.

I think it is too bad that they made Elemental Savant so hard for a Sorcerer to get. The Knowledge: Planes is cross class. FR gives ways around this, but the normal rules don't.

 

[Victim]

I intend to take Divine Disciple at the next level (very soon to 9th at the moment), then at level 11 go the way of the Contemplative.

I went through all the pluses and bonuses and my way seems to be the best progression as opposed to be a straight Cleric.

Forgive me for any slight mistakes in the following post, doing it from memeory, with no notes or books in front of me.

9th Cleric: +d8 hps, +1 BAB, +1 reflex, 5th spells, advancement in turning, +6 skill points

8th Cleric/1st Divine Disciple: +d6 hps, +2 Fort, +0 BAB, 5th Spells, no turning advancement, additional Domain (taking Dwarf which gives +2 Fort saves) and communication abilities with Outsiders, +? +2 Skill points.

So, losing 1hp, 1 BAB and turning advancement, I gain +4 Fort, a new domain, and communication with Outsiders.

Plus my Cha is only 10 as well.....heh, seems all the above Clerics have poor Cha, not all Dwarves are we?

IIRC, Divine Disciple also has d8 HD. Clerics don't get +1 BaB at level 9. Clerics only get 2 skill points, and the Divine Disciple has some extra skills on the list too, I think. THe Will save for Divine Disciple is also good, so you're discounting +2 will.

Cleric: Undead turning, +1 Reflex
DD: New Domain (spell choice and power), outsider communication, +2 Fort, +2 Will

Taking more levels of Dd reinforces your Fort and Will saves and hoses your reflex.

My cleric is human, but my stat rolls were rather poor for 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll ones. My CHA is better than my Dex too. I have an awful tendency to get a zero initiative. Unfortunately, I always forget about my Sacred Defenses, which should come in handy nice we've been fighting drow priestesses and the demons they summon.

I'm not sure about the 5th DD level though. It doesn't add any base attack or saves. Also, I'm not sure I like the roleplaying implications of becoming an outsider.

 

[RogueJK]

I'm not sure about the 5th DD level though. It doesn't add any base attack or saves. Also, I'm not sure I like the roleplaying implications of becoming an outsider.

Becoming an Outsider is actually pretty nice. It makes you immune to some spells that only affect humanoids, plus you get Darkvision 60 feet.

If your DM is really generous, he might even give you the weapon proficiencies that outsiders get, according to the MM errata (all simple and martial weapons). But that's a bit of a stretch.

 

[Skaros]

I don't think there are many perfectly created prestige classes out there. Some too powerful in certain or most campaigns, some underpowered.

I do think that it is a bad or lazy fix to simply 86 all the ones that have issues.

To me it is more interesting for the DMs to simplay adapt them to their campaigns.

In fact, I think this should happen to most PrCs anyway. Even if the DM is running a campaign in Forgotten Realms, his version of the realms will never be exactly the same as Sean K Reynolds version or Greenwoods version....so why should the specific PrCs be exactly the same.

To me, PrCs, in most cases, should be about narrowing the PCs focus (specializing).

First, a DM can answer the question "How does this PrC fit into my world?". Are they specific groups (like particular druidic circles or arcane orders) that teach and work on the powers of the class? or is it just a sort of natural progression that players can move towards without help?

Then, once you know how the class fits in, you can adapt it. Perhaps, in your campaign, an incantatrix, being a metamagic master, has even further extended metamagic powers, but doesn't obtain the full spellcasting progression......for instance.

Perhaps the Elemental Savants are arcanists that are adopted or coerced to serve other-planar elemental masters of great power, and are rewarded with elemental powers for servitude, making the class difficult to take without significant roleplaying trade-offs.

To me, narrowing the focus of classes by increasing the powers related to the flavor of the class, while limiting the broader powers available to single classed characters, is a good way to encourage use of PrCs for roleplaying.

Plus, it doesn't limit what classes are available based on whether they are balanced. Players expect them to be adapted to the campaign anyway.

Just some thoughts,
Skaros