Why you shouldn't use 5 ft corridors

[Storm Raven]

Who says the critter isn't moving? Maybe it's heading in the other direction (running scared or going to get help). Maybe it will call in help from the next room (making the room even more crowded). Just because it doesn't persue doesn't mean it just sits there.

Did you read the spoiler text? If you did, you would know why it is not moving.

However, if it moves away from the door (despite the information in the spoiler text), then it gives up its positional advantage, which is what the PCs wanted anyway. Then they can move into the room and all six of them can get at it.

The "problem" is that the opponent is blocking the door, preventing the PCs from ganging up on it by using a chokepoint. The opponent is also, apparently, difficult to bull rush. If the PCs withdraw, then it can (1) sit there, which makes it easy to kill, (2) advance to follow the PCs, giving up its positional advantage (apparently not possible in the scenario due to other factors), or (3) retreat away from the door, once again giving up its positional advantage.

So, no matter what happens, the six PCs are in a better situation as a result of withdrawing than they were by staying and fighting a static battle against an opponent locked into a fixed position.

The last thing players want to do (usually) and I know my DM would hate if we did is to make a situation where we are facing two seporate encounters at the same time. That is the main reason we as a play group usually don't run when things go bad. When we come back things will be much, much worse.

Withdrawing and regrouping when appropriate is a critical tactic to use. Bulling forwards at all costs is a foolish strategy to use all the time, and a smart opponent will exploit that.

 

[Storm Raven]

Or, y'know, the critter does something bizarre like shuts the door.

And when the PCs regroup and prepare themselves specifically to defeat this opponent, they can open it again. By closing the door, the monster just cedes the tactical initiative to the PCs.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Or, y'know, the critter does something bizarre like shuts the door.

It's been a while since I read this one.....are we talking about a creature likely to shut doors?

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Did you read the spoiler text?

Sorry, bad phrasing on my part.

Maybe in this particular example retreating is the best option after the party opens the door and (whatever it is) yells in their face. I don't know this adventure so I don't know all of the details and the PCs won't either. I don't if it is the equivalent of a guard dog or if the bad guys want to keep The Whatever (to use a highly descriptive term) from trashing the walls. Just because it WAS chained to a wall doesn't mean it WILL be when they come back one minute/one hour/one day later. (Okay, one minute later it likely will be - but I think you get my point).

However, if it moves away from the door (despite the information in the spoiler text), then it gives up its positional advantage

I will agree that if it moves it will give up its current position where it has a certain advantage. I don't know what is beyond the next door or corner and chances are the PCs don't either. It could be an even worse situation for the PCs.

What the PCs know when they are stairing The Whatever in the face is the current situation (and depending on Invisability, Traps or other nastiness maybe not the entire situation at that). After they withdraw what they know is what the situation WAS, not what the situation IS. It might be the same and it might not be.

Withdrawing and regrouping when appropriate is a critical tactic to use. Bulling forwards at all costs is a foolish strategy to use all the time, and a smart opponent will exploit that.

Agreed on both counts. The question is when it is "appropriate" and will withdrawing make the situation worse than it currently is; but this is a discussion for another thread.

We are also way off track of the OP (for which I'm not helping matters any).

Maybe the exact example of a Big And Strong Whatever using a choke point is great encounter. I can say that, assuming we hadn't spent the entire session - or even multiple sessions - working our way through 5' corrodors and corners, I could have fun with this particular encounter. I think someone said this was for first level characters so maybe the entire map is meant to be gone through in a single session - I don't know the full extent of the location so I'm not sure.

I have never said or intended to imply "using 5' passageways is always bad". My point is "always using 5' passageways is bad". Throwing in a choke point will force the group to change tactics. This is likely a good thing. Someone upthread suggested using a 5' passageway and then having baddies attack from both sides. This sounds like a fun encounter. I think I wouldn't enjoy these if they can at the end of hours and hours of 5' pasageway encounters.

What I see as being a good setup (at least in my head) would be something like this:

1st encounter in a larger room
2nd encounter use the attack from both sides
3rd encounter in a larger room (in case someone gets stuck in the middle of the last encounter and got to do nothing)
4th encounter use the choke point

That gives a variety of encounters, forces the group to change tactics a couple of times and still lets some of the players do stuff if they get caught outside the usable combat area. It also keeps the concept of the narrow passages that would likely occur in a make-shift theives hideout. I would enjoy that session a lot more than:

5' passage way fight
Attack from both sides
5' fight at a corner
Choke point

 

[Storm Raven]

Sorry, bad phrasing on my part.

Maybe in this particular example retreating is the best option after the party opens the door and (whatever it is) yells in their face. I don't know this adventure so I don't know all of the details and the PCs won't either. I don't if it is the equivalent of a guard dog or if the bad guys want to keep The Whatever (to use a highly descriptive term) from trashing the walls. Just because it WAS chained to a wall doesn't mean it WILL be when they come back one minute/one hour/one day later. (Okay, one minute later it likely will be - but I think you get my point).

I was thinking one or two minutes later. Given that you can do twenty rounds of buffing, planning, and preparation in two minutes, that should allow the PCs plenty of time to prepare for the situation. When I say "withdraw" I mean in the tactical sense:

"Hey, we can't get past this ting, and the quarters are too cramped for all of us to get at it."

"Let's move back to the bigger room, maybe he will follow us."

"He didn't follow us, any ideas?"

"The room beyond him looked fairly large, we could buff with X, Y, and Z spells and then attack in this way . . . "

A few rounds of planning can make an encounter a cakewalk.

I will agree that if it moves it will give up its current position where it has a certain advantage. I don't know what is beyond the next door or corner and chances are the PCs don't either. It could be an even worse situation for the PCs.

The PCs know what sort of room it is in pretty soon after opening the door - they can see past into the area beyond their opponent after all.

What the PCs know when they are stairing The Whatever in the face is the current situation (and depending on Invisability, Traps or other nastiness maybe not the entire situation at that). After they withdraw what they know is what the situation WAS, not what the situation IS. It might be the same and it might not be.

Sure, its minor risk, but we are only talking about one or two minutes here, and it is a creature that is not going to be moving around (and the reason for that should be obvious to see, given what we know of the scenario).

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I always thought the number of people who could stand abreast would depend on the space requirement of their weapons?

The relevant passage is on page 97 of the 1e DMG. Space requirements clearly do matter here, but, I don't think you could get ten spearmen fighting abreast in a 10' wide corridor!

 

[hoyerhan reborn]

If the PCs withdraw, then it can (1) sit there, which makes it easy to kill,

This is silly. No monster (except zombies perhaps) would do this. Even chained monsters would try to no die, and I guess in this case it would somehow try to get help by making a lot of noise.

(2) advance to follow the PCs, giving up its positional advantage (apparently not possible in the scenario due to other factors),

The chance is at least one PC has lower initiative than the enemy, so the enemy gets a "free" attack on one pc. This attack could be a grappling attack or a fatal blow (not very unlikely at 1st level) to the last PC in the room, which makes a withdrawal dangerous.

And even if the enemy follows them, it doesn't mean that it will reconsider following when it sees that all the PCs stand ready to gang up on it in a large room.

or (3) retreat away from the door, once again giving up its positional advantage.

It is obvious it will not retreat while in a favorable position. However, once the PCs have retreated, the position likely is no longer favorable, and retreating may again give an advantage.

Not to mention the possibly devastating outcome (to the PCs) if it alarms the dungeon and gets backup. Now, I know some DMs ignore this possibility altogether, but I think it makes a dungeon unrealistic and boring if they do.

So, no matter what happens, the six PCs are in a better situation as a result of withdrawing than they were by staying and fighting a static battle against an opponent locked into a fixed position.

This is where we disagree

Withdrawing and regrouping when appropriate is a critical tactic to use. Bulling forwards at all costs is a foolish strategy to use all the time, and a smart opponent will exploit that.

In this I agree. However, when in a dungeon I think it is crucial that the PCs don't give away the initiative, and that is exactly what withdrawing is. If you withdraw you should expect the enemy to regroup and prepare a counterattack.

When the PCs enter a dungeon/castle they have the element of surprise. Lets face it; the PCs stand no chance against the joint forces of the enemy. The only way to win is to pick them off one at a time.


So what I'm trying to say is this: 5ft hallways (and cramped spaces) is bad, because the only (realistic) viable tactic is to just stand there and fight. Which means only 1 or 2 PCs get to participate in the fighting.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This is silly. No monster (except zombies perhaps) would do this. Even chained monsters would try to no die, and I guess in this case it would somehow try to get help by making a lot of noise.

Presumably, no different than combat.

The chance is at least one PC has lower initiative than the enemy, so the enemy gets a "free" attack on one pc. This attack could be a grappling attack or a fatal blow (not very unlikely at 1st level) to the last PC in the room, which makes a withdrawal dangerous.

PCs with high init use Aid Another to improve the AC of the slower PC(s), increasing AC by +2. Those PCs then take a 5-foot step away from the creature. The slower PC does a Withdraw on his action to leave the area.

Not to mention the possibly devastating outcome (to the PCs) if it alarms the dungeon and gets backup. Now, I know some DMs ignore this possibility altogether, but I think it makes a dungeon unrealistic and boring if they do.

Also a possibility in combat, and it is unlikely that the creature will both alarm the dungeon and that the PCs in the next room will not hear it. Nor does standing and fighting preclude the same problem, unless you are assured a quick victory indeed.

OTOH, it has been demonstrated earlier in the thread that a "standard" party could use the 5-foot step to keep everyone involved in this combat. The idea of having attackers occasionally come from both sides, as MerricB suggested, is also a good one.

 

[Hussar]

I was thinking one or two minutes later. Given that you can do twenty rounds of buffing, planning, and preparation in two minutes, that should allow the PCs plenty of time to prepare for the situation. When I say "withdraw" I mean in the tactical sense:

"Hey, we can't get past this ting, and the quarters are too cramped for all of us to get at it."

"Let's move back to the bigger room, maybe he will follow us."

"He didn't follow us, any ideas?"

"The room beyond him looked fairly large, we could buff with X, Y, and Z spells and then attack in this way . . . "

A few rounds of planning can make an encounter a cakewalk.*snip*

1st level PC's remember. Buffing isn't really a huge option here. Besides Bless and maybe Magic Weapon, you're not going to see many buffs.

But, yeah, RC, it's not likely to shut the door.

 

[Storminator]

James,

I totally agree on the Rules As Intended.

As for the doors, it is simply a matter of stating (when you give the typical door stats) that "All doors open into a room, unless otherwise noted", as that's the logical architectural design: when a door opens into a room, the hinges are inside the room. If the hinges are exposed, the door is useless (this is also why cell doors hinge outward, so the hinges are hidden from the prisoner).

So I'm facing the door, and it opens into the room (away from me) are the hinges on my left or my right?

What happens when the door is between two rooms?

At this point I just yell at players.

PS