Why you shouldn't use 5 ft corridors

[MerricB]

I felt that the passageways setup a particularly thrilling encounter just outside the training hall. One member of the party became separated from the rest of the group by a pair of lotus dragons. The poor gnome was hit and fell into negatives... a goner for sure, with the lotus dragon moving above his unconcious body ready to finish him off with a coup-de-grace. There were some real heroics to save him... well that and a failed saving throw.

The training hall was a nice encounter... although it did lead a moment of, "how did all the thieves fit in there?" from the players. When you hear that, you realise that the map isn't big enough.

Cheers!

 

[Wik]

Suggested Tactics in confined spaces:

Tumble past opponent - an excellent tactic at higher levels. However, at 2nd level, the PCs will have a Tumble score of +8 or so, and need a 25. Not an option

Cast Mass Reduce - Not available at 2nd level.

Use Reach or Ranged Weapons - in the most extreme encounter, only three PCs had LOS to the monster. They tried. Even so, at 2nd level, the +4 cover bonus for reach weapons is going to make things very, very hard indeed.

Use Bull Rush - Provoke an Attack of Opportunity to begin with... then have to beat an opposed Strength check. One opponent has a +8 to this check, another a +7. It'll probably work with the thieves (only +1).

Anything else people can suggest?

Cheers!

You got most of 'em. But, most of the fights are in rooms where there's a bit of wiggle room. Just make sure that the front rank gets into the fight quickly (draw an AoO if necessary - just hope the cleric can heal them in battle!).

As a GM, you could just make the rooms a bit bigger - the players wouldn't notice. Maybe even widen up the area in front of the doors a bit, so that a few PCs can pool there.

Really, though, I ran this with four PCs, and we had absolutely no problem. About the only places we had trouble with were:

[sblock=STAP Spoilers!]
The Rhagodessa chamber, which really chewed on my PCs, as well as the Crocodile "Crucible" that was rather tough. Much of the dungeon part of TinH was remarkably easy.[/sblock]

I have to say, I agree with James Jacobs on this one. I think the dungeon was fairly well laid-out, and if you widen the hallways, you deny the rogues their main advantage.

A bonus about it all is that if you rotate the PCs in the front, everyone has their chance to shine. Our Dragon Shaman and Goliath Fighter took turns in point - had no problems (although the Goliath, at 2nd level, had an AC of around 13 and maybe 12 hit points... so he didn't like those rogues teaming up on him!)

 

[Steel_Wind]

Well, James is right in what he says. It's not very accurate and makes for an unrealistic design and it doesn't feel right from a simulationist point of view.

Can't disagree with any of that.

Problem is, if we were all about simulationist designs - we'd all be playing Rolemaster. And we're not doing much of that anymore, are we?

Merric is right guys.

While 10' wide corridors might not make for a very good map or a realistic feel - it's just not a very fun GAME to be playing in unrelenting 5' wide corridors for very long.

And seeing as we're talking about a GAME, the fact that it's not very much fun is about as important a comment as one can make on the design.

It's fun, or it isn't. There's no "yeah but" you can say which has any importance in the face of "it's no fun to play".

Fun wins. Every time.

Anecdote: I experienced this exact problem when running one of Tracy Hickman's designs, The Lyceum in War of the Lance.

My players put up with it for two sessions but they were complaining - a LOT about the design by the beginning of the second session. They were just not having much fun and it showed.

Not once did my players comment in a forgiving way regarding the "realistic" feel of the map, or the sense of architectural elegance that the 5' wide corridors made upon them during the adventure.

Nope. They were too busy being frustrated by the design to notice any of that. It was all overshadowed by a good does of UNfun.

I've not run any large 5' wide dungeons since.

 

[Wik]

How many PCs did you have, Wik?

We had a melee-heavy group during that part. We had:

a Goliath Fighter 1 who wore little in the way of armour, but was already dishing out damage.

A dwarven dragon shaman 1 / fighter 1 who didn't really deal damage, but whose auras were quite effective, and his high AC (scale mail + tower shield + shield specialization) made him the guy who took most of the hits.

A catfolk rogue 1 who didnt' really do a whole lot during this part of the encounter, except pick a few locks that I had added.

An NPC cleric (the PC cleric was a bit flaky for showing up, and we threw in an NPC around here) who was a pacifistic cleric of Pelor. She was really just a healer... although she did blow through some undead at one point in the game (can't remember when, though - are there even any undead in that particular dungeon!?)

 

[chaotix42]

I'm just now putting my 5 PCs and an NPC cleric through the Lotus' hideout and we're having a great time with it. I changed the rogues to ninjas, so maybe that has something to do with it.

All in all though, I attribute this to the fact that we really only have two melee characters, a warblade and a ranger. A lurk and psychic rogue provide various ranged support and desperate melee support when required, and a bard and the NPC cleric stand to the side and buff/heal. The two melee characters have been mostly able to engage the enemies first, as the warblade is the defacto door-kicker and thus the #1 target for ninjas positioned to strike at the first sign of intruders (chance patrols mix this up a bit ). After only a few rounds of combat they are most likely ready for some healing, at which point they withdraw to the prepared healers and the ranged characters step in for a pot shot or two. They quickly tumble away if pressed into melee and by that time the fighters should be ready for more fighting. The bard has drawn his hidden instrument blade a few times, and the cleric has been forced to resort to her stiletto in self-defense on a few occasions, but not as of yet in the Lotus' hideout.

They've had to improvise a few times, but my PCs have been rather successful with these tactics. They've had some hiccups here and there - ambushed by a 4th level water ninja whose abilities confused the hell out them, a nasty natural 20 on a ninja's spear attack, knocking out the warblade in the surprise round - but nothing bad due to the nature of the tunnels. I definitely appreciate the claustrophobic feel of TINH, from the Nixie's flaming hold as the rhagodessa bears down on my wounded and fearful PCs, to the zombie-infested tunnels of Parrot Island (also known as Nowhere To Run Island), and now the dark halls of the Lotus Dragon hideout, where ninjas and tamed beasts lurk in the darkness.

*EDIT* I will admit that Rao'yin (my ninja version of Rowyn) will have a larger chamber to face the PCs in. The tight confines are good, but when the big showdown comes I want the tense stand-offs to end and the high-flying to begin!

 

[phindar]

Tumble past opponent - an excellent tactic at higher levels. However, at 2nd level, the PCs will have a Tumble score of +8 or so, and need a 25. Not an option

This is one reason my group uses the AE rule, where Tumbling is an Opposed Check. Instead of having a skill that's impossible to succeed at in the low levels, and impossible to fail at in the high levels, the difficulty of tumbling past or through the enemy is based on its skill level relative to yours.

I wasn't that wild about the Three Faces of Evil, except for the

Spoiler

grimlocks

. I haven't played "No Honour", but that map snippet does look awfully cramped. It might work better for some groups than others. I think there is a tendency to fight the monsters where you find them, but in a situation like that (particularly the 2x3 room you pointed out), its looks like the better plan would be to draw the opponents out. If they won't leave the room, stand back and nail them with emanations or bursts cast right inside the door. (At low levels, Sleep is a good option. At higher, Fireball, Cloudkill and so on.) If they will chase you, send up a few fighters to kick the hornets nest and run; if the opponent chases them to a better room for the party, have the thief hide behind the appropriate door and barricade it when the monster comes through. And then everybody dogpiles it.

If the monster won't come out of the room and you don't want to tear gas it, you can always barricade, Fire Trap and Alarm the door and look for another way in. At higher levels, Hold Portal is a good way to control an opponent's access to its own dungeon. (Its also a good way to split enemies up, if you can get a group to chase you through a door and have the mage on readied action.) I'd never really thought too much about Hold Portal, but the wizard took it right after Three Faces of Evil and he used it to good effect.

Another idea is if you have a rogue with Craft: Traps and a few vials of Alc Fire, you can booby trap the corridors as you go through. If you're leaving monsters behind you, that might not be a bad idea. A wand of Alarm or Scrolls of Magic Mouth are pretty cheap, and you can spread them about. (Of course, if the party has the beat a hasty retreat, there is the possibility they'll be running along setting off their own booby traps and alarms, but thats the risk you take.)

 

[MerricB]

This is one reason my group uses the AE rule, where Tumbling is an Opposed Check. Instead of having a skill that's impossible to succeed at in the low levels, and impossible to fail at in the high levels, the difficulty of tumbling past or through the enemy is based on its skill level relative to yours.

I've not had a problem with Tumble. You can tumble past (not through) opponents for DC 15; then DC 25 for the advanced use. At DC 35, you tumble through and move at full speed.

If they won't leave the room, stand back and nail them with emanations or bursts cast right inside the door. (At low levels, Sleep is a good option.

Yeah. 2nd level PCs. It sounds good until you realise the Wizard is out of spells.

If the monster won't come out of the room and you don't want to tear gas it, you can always barricade, Fire Trap and Alarm the door and look for another way in. At higher levels, Hold Portal is a good way to control an opponent's access to its own dungeon. (Its also a good way to split enemies up, if you can get a group to chase you through a door and have the mage on readied action.) I'd never really thought too much about Hold Portal, but the wizard took it right after Three Faces of Evil and he used it to good effect.

Heh. I like the hold portal idea; very fun. Alas, other options require a higher-level party.

Cheers!

 

[Mark CMG]

Well, I'm a bit up in the air on this one. I picked up this particular issue because I wanted the map and city, so I will try to give it a run sometime in the next month. Personally, I'm leaning toward liking the use of the narrow passages given the overall theme of this adventure. I would not want twenty character levels of any one thing, narrow corridors or anything else, but I think one adventure like this where there is a fair chunk of tight fighting just makes sense. It is a tough challenge at low levels but for me, that is what makes something fun. If it does not suit someone, they could just call the whole map as ten foot squares rather than the designed five foot squares and be done with it.

 

[phindar]

Well, if the wizard is completely tapped of spells, the size of the corridors is the least of your worries. Fighting in restricted hallways is like fighting in any sort of difficult, specialized terrain. If you're built/prepared for it, its no big deal. If you aren't, you may not get anything done. If its possible, you can always pull out and refocus (taking plenty of Sleep scrolls with you). If it isn't, well, there are other suggestions on the list. I say its always a bad idea to let your enemy pick the terrain. (I'm pretty sure I'm the first person to think of that. I don't think anyone wrote that down thousands of years ago.)

 

[MerricB]

This is one of the worst encounters.

The (red) creature has a +8 modifier to avoid being Bull Rushed. The green positions are where PCs can stand and see the monster. The yellow positions are where two PCs must stand... unable to even see the monster and thus participate.

Cheers!