Wild Shape and Strength drain v3.0

[Ferret]

What if you are drained 10 strength points as bear, when you shift back what happens if you have less then 10 in str? Do you collapse as usual or something special

 

[Pielorinho]

What if you are drained 10 strength points as bear, when you shift back what happens if you have less then 10 in str? Do you collapse as usual or something special

You'd collapse, I'm pretty sure. Why would anything else happen?

There's an interesting follow-up question, however. Imagine that you have a str of 8. You shift into bear form, and you get a str of 19 or so. You take 10 points of damage, and then you shift back into your normal form.

So far, so good: your STR is now 0, since there's no such thing as a negative ability score.

But what happens when you change back into a bear?

1) When you shifted back into a human, you still had 10 points of temporary str damage; however, 2 of those points didn't apply for as long as you had a str of 8. When you shift back into a bear, all 10 points apply again.
2) When you shifted back into a human, you only had 8 points of temporary str damage, since it's impossible to have more points of ability damage than your ability score. When you shift back into a bear, you only have 8 points apply.

I'm strongly in favor of #1, even though the rules don't explain it well. Otherwise, druids who take any str or dex damage would be well-advised to shift into a form with a low score in that area, and then shift back into their normal form; shifting into the low-stat form, under scenario #2, would essentially heal a bunch of points of temp ability damage.

Daniel

 

[Camarath]

I am of the opinion that:
1) Ability Damage and Drain change your base ability score.
2) That polymorph and wildshape replace your base ability score with an effective ability score.

Ability damage is not a transferable penality it alters the ability score the target posses at the time of the damage only. When replacing your ability score with an entirely new score it does not matter whether your str score is sat 10 with ability damage or 10 with out ability damage. It does not matter if the character had a Str of 18 at one time right now the character's Str is 10 not Str 18 with a -8 penality. The ablitiy score is set aside and a new ability score is put in its place. When the spell ends the old ability score returns at it's pervious value.

 

[Pielorinho]

I am of the opinion that:
1) Ability Damage and Drain change your base ability score.
2) That polymorph and wildshape replace your base ability score with an effective ability score.

Is there anything whatsoever in the rules to back up this opinion? I'm not trying to be rude -- if there is some rules-support for it, I'd love to see it, because I may be wrong.

The way I read it, however, there's nothing to support this notion.

Under the "DAMAGE" section of the SRD, we find the definition of ability damage:

Ability Damage: Certain creatures and magical effects can cause temporary ability damage (a reduction to an ability score).

Note that it doesn't change your base score; it is a reduction to an ability score.

When a person polymorphs, she

gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores

Note that she gains the score of the new form. Why on earth would a "reduction to an ability score" that she incurred earlier suddenly disappear?

Why on earth, that is, with rules-support for the argument?

Daniel

 

[Camarath]

Is there anything whatsoever in the rules to back up this opinion? I'm not trying to be rude -- if there is some rules-support for it, I'd love to see it, because I may be wrong.

The way I read it, however, there's nothing to support this notion.

From SRD
ABILITY SCORE LOSS
Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.
While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

You lose (the act of losing possession) points in your ability score they are gone untill you recover them. This changes your base score. A loss and a penalty are very different things one changes the base score the other changes the score you use but leaves the base score intact. Penalties also do not stack wile damage does this is because damage actually changes your score. Your hit points change when you take damage and so do your ability scores. If you replaced your hit point total would you apply damage you have taken as a penalty to your new total?

Note that it doesn't change your base score; it is a reduction to an ability score.

You are wrong it clearly states you lose points in your ability score. A loss is a change. How can you lose points with out the score your are removing them from changing?

When a person polymorphs, she

gains[sic] the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores

Note that she gains the score of the new form. Why on earth would a "reduction to an ability score" that she incurred earlier suddenly disappear?

She gains (to acquire or get possession of) a new score in the ability. The "reduction to an ability score" that she incurred earlier suddenly disappears because it is replaced with a new ability score. The spell does not modify her ability score it flat out replaces it.

 

[Pielorinho]

Okey dokey, Camarath. You're playing semantic games, and I don't do that.

Daniel

 

[Camarath]

Okey dokey, Camarath. You're playing semantic games, and I don't do that.

Daniel

I really have to stop dealing with words and their meanings don't I.

If you don't want to deal with what words such as lose and gain mean, I can't make you. You are saying a lose or reduction does not change the value of the quantity being lost or reduced. You are wrong. You lose hit points and you lose ability score points. Is that such a hard concept? Damage results in a loss (i.e. change in the score being damaged) not a penalty.

 

[Pielorinho]

You are saying a lose or reduction does not change the value of the quantity being lost or reduced.

No, actually, that's not at all what I'm saying -- but it does demonstrate why I won't argue the point further with you.

Daniel

 

[Camarath]

Note that it doesn't change your base score

 

[Pielorinho]

Quoting a sentence fragment out of context=semantic games. Argue honestly and I'll rejoin; continue gameplaying and I won't.

Daniel