Wild Shape question

[Snapdragyn]

In the spell description alter self (on which polymorph is based barring specific exceptions, on which Wild Shape is based barred specific exceptions) it states that you 'maintain your own BAB'. Later, it states that "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." Neither polymorph nor Wild Shape change this in their descriptions.

In conjunction, I take this to mean that a druid would never get the claw-claw-bite routine of a bear (granting that a bite does not come from an 'extra limb', but I feel that the point of not gaining attacks still applies). The druid would, with sufficient BAB, gain additional claw attacks in a round. A druid, by this interpretation, wouldn't even get claw/claw until it had a second iterative attack (I'm aware that 'all primary weapons get full BAB' per the MM, but if that applied here then why wouldn't this also apply to extra limbs so long as they were also primary weapons?).

This rather seriously hampers the combat ability of the wildshaped druid (in fact, it all but destroys it IMO). Since I'm getting ready to play a character specialized for shapeshifting combat, I'm very much open to being persuaded that I've severely misunderstood the RAW here.

 

[Jdvn1]

Does this do it for you?

(from Shapechange)You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own.

(from Alter Self)You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include ... natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on)

[sblock=Animal Type]Animal Type

An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.
Features

An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* d8 Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves).
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Traits

An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
* Low-light vision.
* Alignment: Always neutral.
* Treasure: None.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only ½ its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment.
* Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
* Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.
[/sblock]

 

[werk]

(answered the wrong question)

 

[kyloss]

Take the multi attack feat- and you have no problem, particularly if you are going to be specializing in shifting combat.

 

[nittanytbone]

I believe that the line in Alter Self and Polymorph is to prevent you from shifting into something with four arms or something and going to town with "Two Weapon Fighting."

As I understand it, druids can get a claw/claw/bite routine using a full attack. They could also opt for their iterative attacks using the primary attack of their current form if their BAB is high enough by using the full attack option.

 

[Infiniti2000]

In conjunction, I take this to mean that a druid would never get the claw-claw-bite routine of a bear (granting that a bite does not come from an 'extra limb', but I feel that the point of not gaining attacks still applies).

Read again under alter self: "Physical qualities include . . . natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), ..." This means that the druid gains the natural weapons, all of them, of the animal.

The druid would, with sufficient BAB, gain additional claw attacks in a round. A druid, by this interpretation, wouldn't even get claw/claw until it had a second iterative attack...

Natural weapons never follow the iterative progression, so no.

Take the multi attack feat- and you have no problem, particularly if you are going to be specializing in shifting combat.

Take this suggestion with a grain of salt. Many of us would not allow a druid to take multiattack.

 

[Iku Rex]

In 3.0 (post PH errata) polymorph did not grant natural attack routines. It just gave you the natural weapons, just as in 3.5. (Though IIRC wild shape gave you attack routines in the Masters of the Wild errata.) The relevant parts of the spell description weren't changed in 3.5, but the ruling was:

A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Many DMs and players find this rule puzzling. Essentially, it means that if you suddenly find yourself with two extra arms you can't just pick up four weapons and wade into melee, use a four-handed weapon, fire and reload a heavy crossbow (even a repeating heavy crossbow) in the same round, or perform any other combat tricks that come to mind. You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a, archive at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

This ruling is confirmed in Complete Arcane (page 53), where there's an example polymorphed character. ("Umber hulk form" and "very young gold dragon form" both get natural attacks.)

 

[Brother MacLaren]

A character polymorphed or shapechanged into a hydra should get multiple attacks, correct? Including the multiple AOOs and (for shapechange) breath weapons?

So this caveat really only applies to weapon attacks, and therefore multiple-weapon forms such as ettin or marilith?

 

[boolean]

A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal

So, to clarify, that text is meant to apply to manufactured attacks, not natural weapon attacks?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Take this suggestion with a grain of salt. Many of us would not allow a druid to take multiattack.

Amen.