D&D 5E Wild Speculation: Athas, the World Without Dragons

[Charlaquin]

So, I recently watched this interview with James Wyatt about the First World idea that has been hinted at in Tasha’s and now again in Fizban’s:


In brief, the First World was originally the only world in the material plane, but at some point it shattered into countless fragments, each containing echoes of the First World. Basically, an in-universe explanation for all the different settings and worlds people play D&D in, and why so many common elements exist between them all. In this interview, James goes into some more detail about the First World that we learn in Fizban’s - namely, that it was created by Bahamut and Tiamat, it was populated by dragons, and dragons on all the various fragments or “seedlings” of the First World throughout the material plane are echoes of their First World counterparts. He also talks a bit about how dragons are fundamentally tied to the material plane, in the same way that celestials are fundamentally tied to the upper planes and fiends to the lower planes.

So, this got me thinking, if they’re rolling with this lore as a way to canonically connect various D&D settings together, and dragons are the “outsiders” native to each world within the material plane… What does that say about Athas? Well, I put on my +5 Tinfoil Helm of Baseless Speculation, and here’s what I came up with:

Athas exists within the material plane, so in this canon it must be a seedling of the First World, right? But apart from the Sorcerer Kings, there are no true dragons there. No echoes of the original inhabitants of the First World, which are deeply metaphysically connected to the substance of the material plane itself. Could it be that, in this new canon, this is the reason Athas is so messed up? That without these echoes connecting Athas to the First World, it has become unmoored from the rest of the cosmos, leading the gods to be unreachable, and arcane magic (which also has a connection to dragons) to damage the world, depleting it of what little of its quintessential material substance remains in the absence of dragons?

To be clear, I don’t especially like this idea. I rather hope it’s just the tinfoil making total nonsense seem plausible. But, it’s a direction I could see them taking for a Dark Sun re-imagining.

 

[Eltab]

That is a neat idea, but the resulting BarrenWorld will be Athas-adjacent; it will not be Athas.
Part of the tragic majesty of Athas' backstory is that the ruination of the world was started on purpose (although the end was not intended), it did not happen because of a naturally inevitable force like the cause of a hurricane or earthquake.

 

[Ancalagon]

this reminds me a bit of Game of Thrones - magic was mostly legends and chicanery, until 3 dragons hatched - and now the old spells worked again, and charlatans suddenly had power.

 

[Charlaquin]

That is a neat idea, but the resulting BarrenWorld will be Athas-adjacent; it will not be Athas.
Part of the tragic majesty of Athas' backstory is that the ruination of the world was started on purpose (although the end was not intended), it did not happen because of a naturally inevitable force like the cause of a hurricane or earthquake.

I agree with you that’s what makes Dark Sun, Dark Sun. It loses its thematic punch if the world was ruined by a natural disaster rather than the actions of power-hungry mortals. But I’m speculating on what I think WotC might do in a modern re-imagining, not what I think they should do. Indeed, I kinda actively dislike this idea. But “it would be Athas-adjacent but it wouldn’t be Athas” isn’t really a counter argument. Before Van Richten’s Guide, it could as easily have been said that Domains of Dread without a Core would have been Ravenloft adjacent but wouldn’t be Ravenloft.

 

[Charlaquin]

this reminds me a bit of Game of Thrones - magic was mostly legends and chicanery, until 3 dragons hatched - and now the old spells worked again, and charlatans suddenly had power.

Yeah, similar idea where the existence of dragons in the world gives power to magic. But instead of their near-extinction making magic weaker, it made magic draw on the world itself for power instead, and thus defiling was born.

In this way, I suppose the ruination of the world could still be attributed to the actions of power-hungry mortals. Especially if those same mortals hunted dragons to extinction for the power of their hoard items (another concept introduced in Fizban’s).

 

[Bitbrain]

So, I recently watched this interview with James Wyatt about the First World idea that has been hinted at in Tasha’s and now again in Fizban’s:


In brief, the First World was originally the only world in the material plane, but at some point it shattered into countless fragments, each containing echoes of the First World. Basically, an in-universe explanation for all the different settings and worlds people play D&D in, and why so many common elements exist between them all. In this interview, James goes into some more detail about the First World that we learn in Fizban’s - namely, that it was created by Bahamut and Tiamat, it was populated by dragons, and dragons on all the various fragments or “seedlings” of the First World throughout the material plane are echoes of their First World counterparts. He also talks a bit about how dragons are fundamentally tied to the material plane, in the same way that celestials are fundamentally tied to the upper planes and fiends to the lower planes.

So, this got me thinking, if they’re rolling with this lore as a way to canonically connect various D&D settings together, and dragons are the “outsiders” native to each world within the material plane… What does that say about Athas? Well, I put on my +5 Tinfoil Helm of Baseless Speculation, and here’s what I came up with:

Athas exists within the material plane, so in this canon it must be a seedling of the First World, right? But apart from the Sorcerer Kings, there are no true dragons there. No echoes of the original inhabitants of the First World, which are deeply metaphysically connected to the substance of the material plane itself. Could it be that, in this new canon, this is the reason Athas is so messed up? That without these echoes connecting Athas to the First World, it has become unmoored from the rest of the cosmos, leading the gods to be unreachable, and arcane magic (which also has a connection to dragons) to damage the world, depleting it of what little of its quintessential material substance remains in the absence of dragons?

To be clear, I don’t especially like this idea. I rather hope it’s just the tinfoil making total nonsense seem plausible. But, it’s a direction I could see them taking for a Dark Sun re-imagining.

I can see them going this route and honestly, I’m pretty neutral towards it. As far as Athas is concerned, it doesn’t really matter to me why arcane magic is so potentially destructive to the environment, only that it is.

 

[Steampunkette]

I recognize that WotC has made a decision.

But given that it's a stupid decision I have elected to ignore it.

Having Dragons "Tied to the Prime Material Plane" like outsiders are to their planes is just so, so, myopically bad. They can keep their "All planets have dragons" they can keep their "Weave", they can keep their ridiculous attempts to create a perfectly unified cosmology that stunts any attempt at creating something different.

Why do these people feel the need to create a grand unification of disparate stories and ideas to one bland mush? I hate it.

 

[guachi]

Exactly. There is zero need to have all worlds and stories connected everywhere with some kind of unified cosmology.

Honestly, it's a big reason I lean towards 3rd party settings and adventures because they just don't care about all the cosmology wankery WotC goes through.

 

[Scribe]

Why do these people feel the need to create a grand unification of disparate stories and ideas to one bland mush? I hate it.

To some, there is an almost cellular level call to find that 'grand unified theory' if you will.

I can appreciate that its not for everyone, and I would rather some world simply not be part of the 'multiverse' at all, but...systems make my dopamine spike when they all come together.

 

[Steampunkette]

To some, there is an almost cellular level call to find that 'grand unified theory' if you will.

I can appreciate that its not for everyone, and I would rather some world simply not be part of the 'multiverse' at all, but...systems make my dopamine spike when they all come together.

I'm, honestly, -fine- with a Multiverse.

But if EVERYTHING IS THE SAME except who is hanging out on the Prime Material Plane it's not really all that "Multiversal" is it?

Gotta have some universes where Sigil blowed up real good. Where the Fire Elemental Plane gets snuffed out. Where Asmodeus is the -good guy- for a change...