Wild Speculation: Player's Handbook Revised

[Dice4Hire]

Sure you can. Sign up for DDI. It's called the Monster Builder. It includes not only every monster printed in MMI, MMII, MMIII, and Monster Vault, it also has every monster from every 4E magazine article that included one, plus the monsters from every other 4E product that included them.

Again... sure, you won't have them in printed form... but for $7 a month it is a massive amount of monsters for a small amount of money.

Yes, I think we have got where you stand on the issue now.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I want both up to date books and ddi. Am I a minority?

According to the DDI-ites, you sure are, but in reality, I do not think so. There are a lot of non-DDI people out there, and for them, it is books or nothing. I know DDI is far more profitable for WOTC, and they would be fools to ignore that revenue stream, but they would also be fools to ignore those who do not use DDI.

I would love to see a redone PHBI, with the same classes and races, but the powers and such redone a bit (with errata, but also with a few new powers that reflect a greater understanding of the game. Add some powers, clip out a few and it would be a great book to have. Every game company learns from the beginning of the new edition. It is not terrible to admit it and redo the first books that came out.

That said, I would probably not buy a new MMI, though I would consider it. With MMIII, MV and Dark Sun, I have enough monsters. And with refluffing and reskinning, each of them can be ten more.

 

[Dannager]

I was put off when I saw that the 3.5 classes were to be split up into two (later 3) books.

This gives the rather erroneous impression that these three books contained, together, merely the content of the 3.5 PHB. In reality, someone who owns all three 4e PHBs has double the number of classes that the 3.5 PHB had, plus a whole bunch of extra supplemental rules that came with the later two PHBs.

 

[Dannager]

According to the DDI-ites, you sure are, but in reality, I do not think so. There are a lot of non-DDI people out there, and for them, it is books or nothing. I know DDI is far more profitable for WOTC, and they would be fools to ignore that revenue stream, but they would also be fools to ignore those who do not use DDI.

It's not like WotC is ignoring those who don't subscribe. You still get book releases, and, save Dragon/Dungeon material, you can get everything 4e has to offer (material-wise) without a subscription just by buying the books.

That said, it does seem a little silly to ask for these things, get pointed towards a comprehensive, extremely affordable way to get all those things, and to reject it because it's not printed on paper.

 

[Dice4Hire]

That said, it does seem a little silly to ask for these things, get pointed towards a comprehensive, extremely affordable way to get all those things, and to reject it because it's not printed on paper.

So I should reject EnWorld as it is not on paper?

No? That argument is too simplistic. I reject DDI mainly as it is a false cheapness. If I want that, I have to pay 7:00 a month for the rest of my gaming career. Every single month. 98.00 a year from now till they put me in the ground.

Is that cheap? Depends. But my reasons for rejecting DDI are not simply cost, though that is one of the main 3-4 reasons. But this thread is not about DDI.

 

[Knightfall]

This gives the rather erroneous impression that these three books contained, together, merely the content of the 3.5 PHB. In reality, someone who owns all three 4e PHBs has double the number of classes that the 3.5 PHB had, plus a whole bunch of extra supplemental rules that came with the later two PHBs.

You have a point; there is a lot more player content overall in the three 4e PHBs than in the Pathfinder core rulebook. However, it still felt "wrong" to me that I had to buy three books with the title PHB in order to get what I considered the core D&D classes. I think I would have been more enamored with 4e if the first PHB had the bard and druid classes in it instead of the warlock and warlord classes. (Not having the monk and sorcerer classes in it didn't both me as much.) I'd also have left out the eladrin and tiefling and put in the gnome and half-orc.

I like the dragonborn as a core race, however.

However, I realize that WotC had a very different goal for 4e than they had for 3e. They wanted to change the game in significant ways. They wanted to take a step away from the OGL but still create a game that was D&D at its core. I think they accomplished what they wanted but it felt less "true" to me personally. That's okay, I understand that I wasn't their target audience for 4e.

I'm just glad they created a version of 4e that is closer to what I consider D&D. I think Essentials has a lot of promise and could be even better with more support whether it be on DDI or in printed books. Personally, I prefer printed books. I do not have DDI, and I'm unlikely to get an ongoing subscription... ever. I could see getting it for one or three months in order to get the best of the Dragon and Dungeon content, but I have no desire for D&D tools that I must "rent" instead of "buy."

I guess I'm just too stubborn to change.

Note: I won't pay for Paizo's subscription model either.

 

[Dannager]

So I should reject EnWorld as it is not on paper?

No? That argument is too simplistic. I reject DDI mainly as it is a false cheapness. If I want that, I have to pay 7:00 a month for the rest of my gaming career. Every single month. 98.00 a year from now till they put me in the ground.

Actually, $71.40 per year, assuming you pay yearly (which, given that you would be subscribing for life, seems like the smart choice).

But, really, where's the actual argument, here? I daresay $5.95 per month is a good sight less than you typically spend on books and gaming aids, and that the utility provided by a DDI subscription would probably allow you to forgo future purchases that would cover the added cost. So, I mean, rationally speaking, cost actually favors a subscription.

Speaking as someone who has been a DM with DDI and a DM without DDI, life is so, so, so much better with a subscription.

 

[Dannager]

You have a point; there is a lot more player content overall in the three 4e PHBs than in the Pathfinder core rulebook. However, it still felt "wrong" to me that I had to buy three books with the title PHB in order to get what I considered the core D&D classes. I think I would have been more enamored with 4e if the first PHB had the bard and druid classes in it instead of the warlock and warlord classes. (Not having the monk and sorcerer classes in it didn't both me as much.) I'd also have left out the eladrin and tiefling and put in the gnome and half-orc.

And, of course, the problem is that there's no such thing as a list of historical core classes, beyond (very arguably) the fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue/thief. There's just the list of classes that came with a particular book you were comfortable with (the 3e/3.5e PHB), and that list of classes, as it so happens, did not line up exactly with the list of classes in the 4e PHB.

I'm just glad they created a version of 4e that is closer to what I consider D&D. I think Essentials has a lot of promise and could be even better with more support whether it be on DDI or in printed books. Personally, I prefer printed books. I do not have DDI, and I'm unlikely to get an ongoing subscription... ever. I could see getting it for one or three months in order to get the best of the Dragon and Dungeon content, but I have no desire for D&D tools that I must "rent" instead of "buy."

I guess I'm just too stubborn to change.

Note: I won't pay for Paizo's subscription model either.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what you do and don't like when it comes to subscriptions. I mean, if you're against the idea of "renting" access to materials, you ought to have no problems with Paizo's model, which is simply an agreement to pay for a year's worth of books shipped to your house ahead of time. The other alternative is that you're against the idea of being "shackled" to a subscription for your entertainment. Do you not have a cable/sat/Netflix subscription? If you do, is there a reason you're cool with subscribing to entertainment when it's on your TV, but not when it comes to your gaming needs?

 

[Knightfall]

And, of course, the problem is that there's no such thing as a list of historical core classes, beyond (very arguably) the fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue/thief. There's just the list of classes that came with a particular book you were comfortable with (the 3e/3.5e PHB), and that list of classes, as it so happens, did not line up exactly with the list of classes in the 4e PHB.

Well, I started with 2e, so the classes/races that I like are based what began in the 2e PHB as well as what came in 3e.

For me, the best PHB that has ever been made is the v.3.5 PHB. It has everything in it that makes D&D what I want to play. (The Pathfinder RPG core book is good too but PF hasn't pulled me away from v.3.5. I don't know if it ever will.) The only other PHB that even comes close to the v.3.5 PHB is the Castles & Crusades Players Handbook.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what you do and don't like when it comes to subscriptions. I mean, if you're against the idea of "renting" access to materials, you ought to have no problems with Paizo's model, which is simply an agreement to pay for a year's worth of books shipped to your house ahead of time. The other alternative is that you're against the idea of being "shackled" to a subscription for your entertainment. Do you not have a cable/sat/Netflix subscription? If you do, is there a reason you're cool with subscribing to entertainment when it's on your TV, but not when it comes to your gaming needs?

I do have cable (with a digital box), but its free. It's included as part of the rent for my apartment. If it wasn't included, I'm not sure I'd pay for more than basic cable. To me, high-speed Internet is way more important.

My sister recently bought one year of Netflix, but I haven't really felt a desire to look at it. I've watched a few things but not enough for it to matter. (Note that Netflix in Canada is not the same as Netflix in the states.)

As for the ongoing PF subscriptions, if I could afford them, I likely wouldn't buy into them. I'd rather pick & choose the books I want. Plus, I'm not really into Golarion. The few Pathfinder Chronicles/Campaign books I've bought (v.3.5 and PFRPG) are for use with my v.3.5 homebrew.

In truth, if I had the money to spend on a online subscription, I would use it for EN World before anything else.

 

[DangerAbe]

I'm not saying that DDI isn't a good value.
I'm just saying that I'd rather have books.
My gaming group began playing back when we we're in the boy scouts together some 15 years ago. In the wilderness, playing D&D around a campfire is how I got started. I want to be able to play D&D without electricity and a internet connection.
I don't want to have a laptop and online signal to play a storytelling game set in a medieval world.
The merits and flaws of DDI have no impact on my opinion concerning printed books.
It's a shame that we don't have a compendium Player's Handbook.
It'd be a nice thing to have. Especially as 4e continues to grow and evolve.
I'm still going to keep playing 4e and I'm still going to keep using DDI. I don't have a grudge against WotC.
I just want awesome books to have at the table.