Wilderlands too old?
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
Mystery Man
First Post
Cam Banks said:
I don't know, I'm 36 and think it's pretty cool. I got my first box set back in, I think it was about '82 or so. I still have it actually.
vic20
Fool
Perfect for me
I started playing d&d in 1979 when I was 8 years old, playing with some college-kids (friends of my mom). It wasn't until years later that I realized that it was the Wilderlands campaign setting (home-brewed and stitched against many other sources, as were all campaigns). I distinctly remember my brain bursting with the implied story-telling covered in the boxes of "Player Maps" rolled up into scrolls, each with various swaths of hand-drawn villages/rivers/forests cutting across the hexes.
Now that the new edition is out, this is like a sweet homecoming. The remainder of my d&d gaming will likely take place across the thousands and thousands of hexes that this world offers. It is precisely this "bottom-up" style of world which suits my style, with just enough hooks to hang a story on.
There really isn't anything else quite like the 18 maps covered in hexes offered elsewhere, which is ok by me, as this is everything I could ask for.
Obviously this format is not for everyone, but I'm pleased as punch that the setting has been re-introduced.
I started playing d&d in 1979 when I was 8 years old, playing with some college-kids (friends of my mom). It wasn't until years later that I realized that it was the Wilderlands campaign setting (home-brewed and stitched against many other sources, as were all campaigns). I distinctly remember my brain bursting with the implied story-telling covered in the boxes of "Player Maps" rolled up into scrolls, each with various swaths of hand-drawn villages/rivers/forests cutting across the hexes.
Now that the new edition is out, this is like a sweet homecoming. The remainder of my d&d gaming will likely take place across the thousands and thousands of hexes that this world offers. It is precisely this "bottom-up" style of world which suits my style, with just enough hooks to hang a story on.
There really isn't anything else quite like the 18 maps covered in hexes offered elsewhere, which is ok by me, as this is everything I could ask for.
Obviously this format is not for everyone, but I'm pleased as punch that the setting has been re-introduced.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
JoeGKushner said:
Take a look at FR. What is 55 miles s/se of Silverymoon? The Wilderlands tells you what is in each 5 mile hex. Yeah, some are blank, mostly in the more civilized areas, due to the fact that when thousands of people tromp by something over the years, if it's there, they'll find it.
THAT makes it the most comprehensive setting ever. Close your eyes and point at a spot on a map of FR. What's there? Cormanthyr? The Wilderlands breaks everything down locally to 5 mile hexes. Point to a spot there and ask the dm what's there. He'll not only tell you it's the forest of whatyamacallit, but that particular area is where the dwarven hero Asmodius was slain over a hundred years ago and his ghost still haunts the remains of his body. Sure, there are places like that in other settings, but not every 5 mile hex. This is the strength of the setting and makes the world real. A good dm can do this with any setting, but it involves either a huge amount of work, or sheer genius at winging it.
Note: I'm not picking on FR, just using it as an example. No setting is as detailed as the Wilderlands in this respect. And the Wilderlands does it without ramming plots down your throat. The frogs are there simply as an encounter. The dm can run it as such or flesh it out as he wishes. It works equally well either way. The groundwork is there, ideas for you to use or ignore. Ignoring frogs is a hell of a lot easier than ignoring Elminster.
der_kluge
Adventurer
JoeGKushner said:
Well, I suppose that could be part of it. The Wilderlands doesn't force anything upon me. FR has a certain amount of baggage as part of the world, not to mention the general power level of the place as a whole. I think the Wilderlands has a more gritty, realistic, less over-powered feel to it which appeals to a lot of older gamers.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
danbuter said:
When you get off the beaten path, most hexes are detailed. From what I've seen, anyway - I haven't been over the boxed set with a fine toothed comb. Sure, if you're travelling down Rorystone road, there's not much there, but that's a pretty well travelled area.
What makes this setting different?
What makes the Wilderlands different is it's purpose for existing is to let the characters conquer it or die trying. Other settings' purpose for existing is to form intellectual property that can be exploited through film, literature, comic books or video games. That's a huge difference.
Wilderlands characters aren't pawns of the DM. They're the ones running the show. That's where it's similar to Conan, not in an actual "Conan the RPG" type way. It's Core D&D where the characters are issued a challenge when they first roll up their characters: see how notorious you can become, for good or for ill, before this setting overwhelms you. Ultimate victory is in gaining a high enough level that nothing in the setting can adequately challenge you any more.
In that sense it's far more like the World's Largest Dungeon than it is like Fantasy Realms. But it doesn't have the train tracks that the World's Largest Dungeon has.
Basically, a typical Fantasy Realms or Greyhawk campaign consists of the following: "Some evil blah blah blah insert plot hook here blah blah boxed text." The characters all run off to conquer the evil or whatever. They gain some loot. They return to town, sell the +1 longsword so they can buy a +1 falchion instead. Head out again, conquer some more evil, get some more loot, return to town, sell their loot, get a new plot hook, and so forth. It's just episodic plot hook to plot hook. That's fun, I'm not knocking it, I enjoy playing those kinds of campaigns, but in my opinion they're death to DM because everything's so predictable.
A typical Wilderlands campaign generally starts the same way with "some evil blah blah blah insert plot hook here blah blah boxed text." But when the characters go off to address the plot hook they have to go through six wilderness hexes, one of which contain giant frogs that swallow one of the characters. If the characters blew it and don't have a ranger or druid they get lost and get slowly picked off by randomly encountered winged apes. If they manage to find their way to the plot hook/dungeon they conquer some evil just like a typical game but things are different again when they try to return to the town to sell it all. Once again they get lost and this time they end up in a town run by orcs. But the orcs don't kill them because the town is "lawful" even if it's evil. They try to sell their goods but the orcs are really just interested in ripping them off and, besides, no one is selling a +1 falchion anyway. The characters start to realize there's no real reason to go follow the "blah blah plot hook" anyway because there's plenty of adventure to be had and money to be made killing the orcs in this town instead. They go on a rampage and set the town up as their own little fiefdom. The DM looks at the map and figures out the power centers around the town and who would be threatened by the PC's fiefdom. These towns/cities ally against the PC's or demand the PC's pay tribute to them. The PC's by now too big for their britches, decide they're not gonna pay tribute to anyone, and a war starts. So on and so forth.
It's a different style of play that yeah, maybe new RPG-ers won't understand because it hasn't been popular for a long, long time. I've recently heard it described as "game-ism", which makes sense to me. It's about the game, not about the story.
I would strongly contest, however, the notion that there is no "greater" sense of politics in the Wilderlands. That is true of some maps, but not all. You must read the chapters with the map laying out next to you, so that you can see exactly where each hex entry is as you read it. If you do this with the City State Chapter, you'll see that there is a wealth of political intrigue to be had on that map.
The reason so much of the setting is evil -- towns and cities with evil alignments, that is -- is that characters are mostly good. Would you create a dungeon filled with paladins? Not likely. This is a setting meant to be conquered.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.
What makes the Wilderlands different is it's purpose for existing is to let the characters conquer it or die trying. Other settings' purpose for existing is to form intellectual property that can be exploited through film, literature, comic books or video games. That's a huge difference.
Wilderlands characters aren't pawns of the DM. They're the ones running the show. That's where it's similar to Conan, not in an actual "Conan the RPG" type way. It's Core D&D where the characters are issued a challenge when they first roll up their characters: see how notorious you can become, for good or for ill, before this setting overwhelms you. Ultimate victory is in gaining a high enough level that nothing in the setting can adequately challenge you any more.
In that sense it's far more like the World's Largest Dungeon than it is like Fantasy Realms. But it doesn't have the train tracks that the World's Largest Dungeon has.
Basically, a typical Fantasy Realms or Greyhawk campaign consists of the following: "Some evil blah blah blah insert plot hook here blah blah boxed text." The characters all run off to conquer the evil or whatever. They gain some loot. They return to town, sell the +1 longsword so they can buy a +1 falchion instead. Head out again, conquer some more evil, get some more loot, return to town, sell their loot, get a new plot hook, and so forth. It's just episodic plot hook to plot hook. That's fun, I'm not knocking it, I enjoy playing those kinds of campaigns, but in my opinion they're death to DM because everything's so predictable.
A typical Wilderlands campaign generally starts the same way with "some evil blah blah blah insert plot hook here blah blah boxed text." But when the characters go off to address the plot hook they have to go through six wilderness hexes, one of which contain giant frogs that swallow one of the characters. If the characters blew it and don't have a ranger or druid they get lost and get slowly picked off by randomly encountered winged apes. If they manage to find their way to the plot hook/dungeon they conquer some evil just like a typical game but things are different again when they try to return to the town to sell it all. Once again they get lost and this time they end up in a town run by orcs. But the orcs don't kill them because the town is "lawful" even if it's evil. They try to sell their goods but the orcs are really just interested in ripping them off and, besides, no one is selling a +1 falchion anyway. The characters start to realize there's no real reason to go follow the "blah blah plot hook" anyway because there's plenty of adventure to be had and money to be made killing the orcs in this town instead. They go on a rampage and set the town up as their own little fiefdom. The DM looks at the map and figures out the power centers around the town and who would be threatened by the PC's fiefdom. These towns/cities ally against the PC's or demand the PC's pay tribute to them. The PC's by now too big for their britches, decide they're not gonna pay tribute to anyone, and a war starts. So on and so forth.
It's a different style of play that yeah, maybe new RPG-ers won't understand because it hasn't been popular for a long, long time. I've recently heard it described as "game-ism", which makes sense to me. It's about the game, not about the story.
I would strongly contest, however, the notion that there is no "greater" sense of politics in the Wilderlands. That is true of some maps, but not all. You must read the chapters with the map laying out next to you, so that you can see exactly where each hex entry is as you read it. If you do this with the City State Chapter, you'll see that there is a wealth of political intrigue to be had on that map.
The reason so much of the setting is evil -- towns and cities with evil alignments, that is -- is that characters are mostly good. Would you create a dungeon filled with paladins? Not likely. This is a setting meant to be conquered.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.
vic20
Fool
Not quite...
5-10 hexes per column is probably fairly accurate. Which is actually a perfect granularity. You want to have some "breathing room" to stitch the various creatures and peoples together, or be able to plop down a key settlement/ruin/dungeon from the module you happen to be running without impacting a delicate canonical ecosystem.
Figure 7 hexes per column (rounding down). Multiply by 52 columns per map = 364 hooks per map. Multiple by 18 maps = 6552 hooks.
That's a lot of hooks for just two books.
JRRNeiklot said:
5-10 hexes per column is probably fairly accurate. Which is actually a perfect granularity. You want to have some "breathing room" to stitch the various creatures and peoples together, or be able to plop down a key settlement/ruin/dungeon from the module you happen to be running without impacting a delicate canonical ecosystem.
Figure 7 hexes per column (rounding down). Multiply by 52 columns per map = 364 hooks per map. Multiple by 18 maps = 6552 hooks.
That's a lot of hooks for just two books.
vic20
Fool
Crossposted to Judges Guild
For some very positive words about what makes the setting work, read the replies to this exact question to the regulars in the Wilderlands forum:
http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm42.showMessage?topicID=191.topic
For some very positive words about what makes the setting work, read the replies to this exact question to the regulars in the Wilderlands forum:
http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm42.showMessage?topicID=191.topic
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